12-08-2003, 12:48 AM | #1 |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
Posts: 1,947
|
The Day that will live in Infamy...
Ok I know there is only 15 minutes left on this day December 7th, but I was out all day and didn't get to post this. Today was a very important day for us Americans. I thought it was appropriate to remember Pearl Harbor. Today, December 7th, 62 years ago, Japan attacked us. It's amazing how certain days in history that would have been normally an obscure day are long remembered for unfortunate instances. Just as Pearl Harbor occurred, some 60 years later we are awoken again with 9/11. These are the days that have made our country great, the days where we have seen the true American spirit, the bond of patriotism and love for what we have and who we are.
Here is a great piece that National Geographic put together on Pearl Harbor... http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com.../frameset.html Here is info on the ships and planes at Pearl Harbor as well, this is pretty neat: http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com...bor_facts.html
__________________
'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
12-08-2003, 01:08 AM | #2 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
I mentioned to JD that I was surprised that he hadn't started a thread about it.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
12-08-2003, 01:36 AM | #3 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
I know SG - I just usually don't think about Pearl Harbor. I know I should, my brother is stationed in Hawaii currently on his way back to the Middle East and my grandfather was in the Pacific Fleet during World War II.
Pearl Harbor is a mixed blessing/disaster. If we didn't get bombed, thousands of people would have lived, yet chances are we would never have entered World War II. If we never got into World War II, Europe would have been ruled by Nazi Germany and Hitler would have won.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
12-08-2003, 07:11 AM | #4 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
|
I wonder what would have happened if Germany hadn't declared war on the USA straight after the attack? It was that declaration that linked the Pacific and European wars - the USA could have reasoned that the Pacific needed dealing with before even thinking about joining a war in Europe.
However, I'm not so certain the implications of non-involvement by the USA would have been ultimate victory for Hitler. With a tiny surface fleet the Germans had one chance to invade Britain, and when they failed to destroy the RAF at its most vulnerable that chance was gone. Hitler had already taken the decision that lost the war before 7th December, because he had invaded Russia by then. Rule One of world domination: never march on Moscow! Maybe without the worry of guarding against a second front the Germans could have stabilised the Eastern Front and engineered a ceasefire that left them in charge of Continental Europe for a time. Likelier that the Russians would have eventually have steam-rollered them unaided, with the Iron Curtain coming down across the English Channel instead of midway through Germany.
__________________
I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? |
12-08-2003, 07:34 AM | #5 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
There were so many turning points that you can't put your finger on one of them. Battle of Britain, El Alamein, Stalingrad, Pearl Harbour, Battle of the Atlantic, Midway. Even "small" things like radar, sonar and Bletchley Park played a decisive part. Still, somehow I think that Europe would be a radically different shape now if America hadn't entered the war in 1941 (not to mention minus even more of its Jewish population). Last edited by The Gaffer : 12-08-2003 at 07:36 AM. |
|
12-08-2003, 08:07 AM | #6 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
|
Quote:
And good point about the extra year or so buying the RAF some time, though I don't think he could claim to have been playing for that! All the same, Gladiators, Albacores and Defiants against the Bf109 doesn't bear thinking about!
__________________
I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? Last edited by Draken : 12-08-2003 at 08:11 AM. |
|
12-08-2003, 09:49 AM | #7 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
In addition, this led to the use of the first atomic bomb. The world realized it was so terrible that it should never be used again. Unfortunately, we can't be completely sure. In an on-going arms race, nations continue to stockpile and produce them. Plus, after the collaps of the USSR, many bombs possibly unaccounted for.
This is perhaps slightly off topic, but I feel that the bombing of Hiroshima was a significant result of Pearl Harbour. Simplistically, the Japanese government of the time wanted to control the entire Pacific, which includes Hawaii. They took over other islands as well, but Pearl Harbour was the most major attack. In addition, a direct attack got the USA involved, as was already mentioned.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
12-08-2003, 11:20 AM | #8 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
btw... has ayone else seen it? There's a "Lord of the Rings" version of RISK out there now! PERFECT Christmas present for me, if anyone is interested!!! |
|
12-08-2003, 11:26 AM | #9 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
|
Nurvingiel:
Well you could certainly say that Pearl Harbour started a chain of events that led to Hiroshima/Nagasaki. I'd suggest though that the desperate defence of Iwo Jima and the like had a big influence: the Allied planners must have scaled that up for what resistance on the main Japanese islands would be like and decided the losses from a conventional invasion would have been horrendous. I think Pearl Harbour was one of those cases of a tactical victory but a strategic defeat - yes the Japanese did a lot of damage for light losses, but they pissed off the biggest economy in the world AND missed the carriers.
__________________
I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? |
12-08-2003, 11:33 AM | #10 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Iwo Jima probably was key in our decision to USE the atom bomb, and Pearl Harbor may have helped us justify their use. However, I think the development was in response to German efforts to develop the same kind of thing. They just focused on 'heavy water' while we went to uranium. Then, the way things unfolded, with Germany NOT being successful in deleloping their own atom bomb, and the way they were surrounded and fell at the end, there was no reason to use it in Europe.
|
12-08-2003, 03:51 PM | #11 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
|
Quote:
By the way, anybody knows the principles behind the heavy-water a-bomb? Would it have worked, if they had manage to put it together? Learned about it at school some years ago, but can't remember anything...
__________________
Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
|
12-09-2003, 04:32 AM | #12 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
The heavy-water was not used in the bomb itself, but in the process of making it. I wish young Norwegians would remember April 9, 1940, in much the same way as Americans seem to remember Pearl Harbor.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-09-2003 at 04:36 AM. |
|
12-09-2003, 05:43 AM | #13 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
|
Artanis: Didn't Norway liberate itself at the end of the war? Or was that Denmark? Or both?
I think the implications of the invasion of Norway were almost the flip side of the attack on Pearl Harbour. At Pearl Harbour the Japanese won a tactical victory but missed the carriers that would eventually halt their advances in the Pacific. In Norway the Germans won a strategic victory but lost so many surface ships that their own later plans were badly affected - most obviously, with little surviving naval support they needed to totally destroy the RAF before they could attempt invasion of Britain. Oh and thanks for the Christmas trees, btw!
__________________
I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? |
12-09-2003, 10:20 AM | #14 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-09-2003 at 10:32 AM. |
||
12-09-2003, 10:39 AM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
Have to agree on that one. Stalingrad was the decisive battle of the war, and the battle of Kursk (July 1943) showed that the Russians could beat the Germans single-handedly, if at a slower pace. Even without American involvement Hitler had to keep considerable occupation forces in the West.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
|
12-09-2003, 01:58 PM | #16 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
12-09-2003, 02:09 PM | #17 | |||
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
12-09-2003, 02:59 PM | #18 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
|
12-09-2003, 04:14 PM | #19 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
12-09-2003, 04:46 PM | #20 | |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Quote:
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Enmooters Hall of Fame (and Infamy) | hectorberlioz | General Messages | 68 | 09-02-2009 05:13 PM |
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince | Rûdhaglarien | Harry Potter | 440 | 08-04-2007 12:44 AM |
live 8 | emily leonard | Entertainment Forum | 0 | 06-26-2005 02:14 PM |
Which demons must you live with... ? | MrBishop | General Messages | 13 | 05-02-2005 07:18 PM |
Why you believe what you believe II | Rían | General Messages | 227 | 03-21-2005 06:13 PM |