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05-05-2006, 06:54 PM | #1 | |
Elven Warrior
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Were the Valar “demoted” at the end of the Second Age?
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If the Valar’s task was to guide and protect the Children of Iluvatar, they did a pretty lousy job. The story of Elves and Men is filled with hatred, war, and suffering, much of which can be attributed directly to the Valar and much of which (no, not all) they could have prevented. The Valar had made mistakes on top of mistakes. They were perhaps too interested in their own happiness and definitely didn’t understand Elves and Men. When they realized that the Numenoreans were going to attack them (due to the influence of one of their own people, no less) they should have appreciated the magnitude of the situation. They could have sent an ambassador such as Eonwe to speak with the Numenoreans and perhaps counteract Sauron. Or (heaven forbid) one of the Valar could have left to comfort of Valinor and gone themselves. What did the Valar see fit to send? Threatening weather and cloud formations, nice choice. The Valar’s decision to fence themselves (and apparently many of the most beautiful things in the world) in the West and then ban the Numenoreans from visiting and then failing to take proper action when troubles arose, caused Eru to have to destroy thousands of his Children. Maybe this was the final straw. He then removed the temptation of Valinor from the Earth and let the Valar live their own lives without so much responsibility for the state of Middle Earth. A responsibility they had never really lived up to anyway. |
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05-06-2006, 10:28 AM | #2 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Very interesting, CAB.
I have little to say, because I agree with you. Of course, the Valar did send the Istari... |
05-06-2006, 11:02 AM | #3 | |
Elven Warrior
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05-06-2006, 11:16 AM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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go see my new theory in the ban of the valar thread ...
essentially discussing whether the valar were in fact, only one lazy fat man, a wiazrd of oz style character with bad breath and a fear of the common cold and who hated garlic?? ...or ... (will get back to you on this when i have some time - just having a quick look around now- while i have a mo - as i wait for someone to turn up to pick up a camera) best, BB |
05-06-2006, 02:05 PM | #5 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-06-2006, 05:06 PM | #6 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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And really, TD, don't you think that Ulmo and Tulkas and Osse couldn't deal with the Fleet themselves? They were Valar! I think, the Valar really didn't want to harm Numenoreans, they recognised their own failure and just didn't know what to do. Basically they resigned the Rule of Arda. |
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05-06-2006, 06:54 PM | #7 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I think that Manwe felt that killing the Children of Eru was something he could not do without consulting Eru. It would have been like the Valar killing the elves.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-07-2006, 03:40 AM | #8 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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It could be that the Valar did recognise their own fault in the disaster and knew that an even bigger mess could be made in trying to set it right again. They may have asked Eru in that light to be taken off the case. Or Eru may have told them himself that he was tired of their screwing up and that Arda was better off without their interfering. And who knows, it may very well have been the idea from the start that Arda at one point would have to do without stewards, like a child that comes of age and doesn't require the help from his guardian any longer. Although I doubt it was planned to be in such a situation.
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05-07-2006, 01:41 PM | #9 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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05-07-2006, 01:51 PM | #10 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Also, I never said anything about surrendering, I just gave my idea about why the Valar called on Eru and didn't act directly themselves against Númenor.
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05-07-2006, 07:44 PM | #11 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by CAB : 05-07-2006 at 09:09 PM. |
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05-08-2006, 02:50 AM | #12 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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That reasoning makes a lot of sense. But I don't think the reasons you and I posted have to be mutually exclusive.
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05-08-2006, 04:58 AM | #13 | |
Elven Warrior
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If the Valar assumed that Sauron wouldn’t take shape again after the Downfall, the question still would have been open to speculation among the Men of Middle Earth. I doubt the Valar sent any emissaries to explain what happened. The surviving Numenoreans may have suspected the truth immediately, or maybe not. I think it is unlikely they knew exactly what the Valar were and were not capable of. If he acted cleverly, as he had in the past, Sauron probably could have influenced the Numenoreans' belief about what actually happened, at least for a while. Once they realized (which probably took some years) that Valinor was gone and the Earth was round, the Numenoreans probably knew that this was beyond the Valar’s power. Not that you said anything contrary to this Earniel, but the Valar had to receive much of the blame, whether they actually destroyed the Numenoreans by their own hands or not. Last edited by CAB : 05-08-2006 at 05:37 AM. |
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05-08-2006, 02:59 PM | #14 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by Landroval : 05-08-2006 at 03:01 PM. |
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05-08-2006, 04:20 PM | #15 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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The destruction of Numenor itself was a crime against humanity - I agree wity Crazy Squirrel in that. Quote:
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The Noldor cursed themselves by swearing am impossible Oath by the name of Eru. Mandos merely prophesized, not cursed, strictly speaking. Last edited by Gordis : 05-08-2006 at 04:24 PM. |
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05-08-2006, 05:26 PM | #16 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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I would like to ask you a question Landroval. I hope you don’t think I’m getting smart with you, that isn’t my intention. I am interested in your opinion. You have argued that the Valar had a sufficient reason, the right, and the ability to destroy the Numenorean fleet and Numenor itself. Why do you think that they called on Eru? What do you think is meant by “laid down their government”? Quote:
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05-09-2006, 02:23 PM | #17 | ||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder: -- for lo! Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest. Quote:
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05-09-2006, 02:56 PM | #18 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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05-09-2006, 05:56 PM | #19 |
Elven Warrior
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I can’t agree with your viewpoint concerning the Valar Landroval. They aren’t God, that position is held by Eru. If they aren’t God, then they are fallible. In my opinion, the spirit of the quote you gave, concerning Melkor’s deeds serving Eru’s will in the end, would very easily apply to the Valar with a few changes. Of course they didn’t purposely oppose Eru’s will, but their mistakes were much like Melkor’s evil. Both were “evil yet good to have been”.
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05-10-2006, 03:02 PM | #20 | |||||||||
Elven Warrior
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I don't see how one could equate mistakes with evil. No action can be a mistake in itself - it becomes so only in relation with the outer-world. Yet what defines an action as evil is its intentions and nothing else. Quote:
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