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02-05-2005, 07:58 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Lord of the Rings Discussion Project: Book III ch. 1 and 2 Pt. 1
The Departure of Boromir:
When last we left the company, Frodo and Sam had crossed the river Anduin and were among the Emyn Muil on the Mordor side. We had hints that all was not well among the remainder of the Company, but nothing substantial. This chapter opens with Aragorn ascending to the seat at Amon Hen to discern there things for himself and to find Frodo. Aragorn sees nothing, but is interrupted by the blowing of Boromir's horn and the sounds of battle below him. He rushes down and finds Boromir sitting against a tree, apparently sleeping were it not for the arrows sticking out of him. Aragorn believes him to be dead, but on taking his hand, Boromir opens his eyes. With his last breath, Boromir informs Aragorn of what happened, his attempt to take the Ring from Frodo, his repentance, and the capture of the hobbits by orcs. Boromir's last statement is a request/command that Aragorn go and save his city, for he has failed. Legolas and Gimli come upon the scene moments later to find Aragorn mourning Boromir. As they examine the scene the note that there are orcs from the North, Moria probably, orcs from Mordor, and orcs bearing a White Hand among the dead. Aragorn after deliberation guesses that these are probably from Isengard and Saruman. The three discuss what is to be done and how to do it, and it is decided that before chase is given Boromir's remains must be taken care of; and the easiest way to achieve this and yet still remain respectful is to commit him to the river. They convey his body and such weapons of his fallen enemies as they can carry back to the river, retrieve the boats (only 2, the third is missing). They then send Boromir and the weapons in one boat down the river. Aragorn and Legolas sing a dirge for Boromir. The companions then return upriver to Parth Galen where they had camped and Aragorn began tracking and piecing together events. He guessed, and was later confirmed in, that Frodo had tried to go into Mordor alone, not wishing to have anyone die or be tempted by the Ring. He could not however leave Sam behind, so Sam was with him. So with the 3 of them standing there, Boromir and Gandalf gone, that leaves Merry and Pippin in the clutches of the orcs. Legolas and Gimli leave the decision to Aragorn who decides that the Ring and Ringbearer are beyond their help now, but Merry and Pippin are not. So they begin their pursuit of the orc force across Rohan. The Riders of Rohan The 3 Hunters begin their pursuit. Early at dawn on the second day of the chase, the hunters discover two orc bodies cruelly hacked--Aragorn guesses that there was disagreement about the road to take, and that there can be little doubt now that the troop is headed to Isengard. As they come to the eastern wall of the Emyn Muil and enter Rohan proper, Legolas sees an eagle far off and very high, seemingly heading northward. There is speculation as to whether this is the same eagle seen in book I and what its mission is. Not finding an answer, the chase continues. Not far into the day as they cross the plains of Rohan, they find a trail that breaks away and then stops, surrounded by orc boots. And among the prints is a pin of Lorien, the beautiful leaf that clasps all the Company's cloaks. Aragorn, based on the size of the footprints, thinks Pippin may have broken away and left the leaf for anyone who might follow--a very hopeful sign. They rest that night, and the third day brings nothing but league after weary league of following a trail growing increasingly cold. Aragorn notes in passing that the land is strangely silent--no animals of any kind, much less humans. They rest again the third night. On the morning of the fourth day, Legolas expresses his fear that the orc force has reached Fangorn; Aragorn remarks and Legolas and Gimli confirm that they feel some sort of force working against them that saps the will of the heart more than stops the body--a force emanating from somewhere ahead of them, not Sauron behind them. Saruman. His treachery is becoming clear and evident. They began the fourth day in urgency--Legolas feeling that they were "called." Toward mid-day they reach the downs that begin the approach to the mountains and the gap of Rohan. They come upon the top of a hill where the orc troop rested awhile and then proceeded, and Aragorn notes how old now that trail is. But they continue onwards. As the day ends, the sleep atop a green down, as the fifth day dawns, they see coming toward them a troop of riders, the sun glinting off their spear points. |
02-05-2005, 08:01 PM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Lord of the Rings Discussion Project: Bk III ch. 1 and 2 Pt. 2
They wait for the Riders on the side of the hill. The eored has nearly passed them by when Aragorn stands and announces their presence, seeking news. The eored quickly surrounds them, and the challenge is given: each side identifies themselves, and Eomer, as he hears and sees a man descended from Elendil, an elf of Mirkwood, and a dwarf chasing orcs across Rohan, expresses an ill and ignorant opinion of the Lady of the Wood. This causes Gimli to defend her, and Legolas to draw his bow. The end of the Company is nigh. Aragorn steps in, averts the near fatal altercation, and relates as much of the Company's business as he deems wise. He asks for tidings of the hobbits only to hear that no such beings were found among the dead orcs, which by the way, the eored had engaged in battle the night before, defeated, and burned the corpses after despoiling them. Eomer must now choose what to do: obey the law of his king and take the three back to Edoras (and surely cause a fight that will end ill for all), let them go, let them with assistance. He chooses the latter course, exacting a promise that the three show themselves to the king as soon as chance allows, a promise Aragorn gladly accepts. The 3 hunters now ride following the orc trail to the battle/burn site carefully looking for any sign of the hobbits. They search far and wide over the battlefield without success until light fails. They set up camp near a large tree standing apart. Gimli decides to start a fire, but is warned to cut no living limb from any tree--he doesn't need to since the Riders have left plenty after the pyre. Here several things of note occur that set up the next chapter: the tree, as Gimli notes, is glad of the fire and seems to be warming itself over it; they see an old man with a large hat that they eventually take to be Saruman coming to discover what has become of his hobbit quarry, and the horses bolt--out of fear at "Saruman" or not is debated. The night passes slowly.
Discussion Points: 1) The hints of the White Hand and the journey away from the river suggest a new level of Saruman's treachery. Other than Gandalf's capture, have there been other hints of the depth and direction of Saruman's plan prior to this? 2) Is Boromir's repentance sufficient? 3) Did Aragorn make the right decision? 4) The eagle that they see, what do you think it is doing? Tolkien mentions it twice, once in Book I, and now here. 5) How has the death of Boromir and the choice laid on him changed Aragorn? 6) Are there unexpected elements to Gimli's character that come out in this chapter? 7) The tree at the end of the Riders chapter: tree or ent? 8) The old man at the end of the Riders chapter: real or phantom? Saruman or Gandalf or other? 9) If Saruman to #8, why didn't he do something about them--he after all had the power of his voice if nothing else, and at this point he had plenty of "else"---and he certainly should have been alerted to something when a man, an elf, and a dwarf are traveling together near that battlefield. So what explains Saruman's lack of action here? 10) Reused scenes: the final scene of the Riders chapter parallels what other scene from book I? How does this inform how this chapter is to be understood? 11) These two chapters are interrupted at various points by songs: what do you make of the poetry/songs here? How would you compare it to previous poetry in LoTR? Does it enhance your reading or detract from it? Why or why not? 12) I'm with Eomer: that distance on foot in that short of time is nothing short of amazing. Strider indeed is no fit name! Is this heroic hyperbole on Tolkien's part? I'll probably post more discussion questions. And if you don't mind I'll probably post some developing commentary on the chapter----someday I want to publish my own commentary to LoTR or an annotated LoTR for teaching it to literature classes. So over the two weeks for these chapters I'll post some of the commentary and would appreciate feedback. In the meantime, here it is, hope you enjoy it. Now I'm off to fix dinner for guests! Sincerely, Forkbeard |
02-05-2005, 11:01 PM | #3 | ||
Elven Warrior
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02-06-2005, 07:39 PM | #4 |
The Intermittent One
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someone else the old man was?
eonwe was he perhaps? |
02-06-2005, 07:41 PM | #5 |
The Intermittent One
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nice intro, BTW forkbeard!
i think the tree was a huorn |
02-07-2005, 08:09 AM | #6 | ||
Fëanorophobic
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Thanks for your time, FB!
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You can say that he made the right decision in hindsight; however, at that time, I don't think he made the right decision. After all, Frodo's quest was of the essence and (IMO) a leader should have sacrificed the lives of Merry and Pippin for the greater good. That said, Aragorn could track the orcs but he couldn't have tracked Frodo, so his chances of finding Frodo again were minimal so.... Good question, indeed. Sorry, nothing more to add! |
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02-07-2005, 12:24 PM | #7 | |||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Great intro FB
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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02-08-2005, 09:02 AM | #8 | |||||
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Picking and choosing:
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Now - his protection of Merry and Pippin was EVIDENCE of his repentance... it was the repentance of his heart bearing fruit in his life. In fact, he became again the great warrior that he was - without the distraction of the Ring. But it isn't the body count of Orcs or even the attempt to fight them that made his repentance valid. A lesser man who tried to save the Hobbits but was slain by the first Orc could have been every bit as repentant. So Boromir's fight with the Orcs was the "fruit" of his repentance - sort of like the passage in James which says that Abraham's faith was made complete by what he did. The attitude of the heart showed itself in the actions of the life. Also - looking ahead, someone important tells us that Boromir was saved at the last... curious thing to say about someone who was just slain, huh? Quote:
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Got a better one for you though. After escaping capture from the Shawnee Indians (in 1778 - at age 44)), Daniel Boone supposedly made his way back to Boonesborough on foot in four days... and that was 160 miles! He had no provisions with him and had to cross the Ohio River even though he couldn't swim (I think he found either a canoe or a log to cross on). Of course, he didn't have the mind of Saruman bent against him. And he wasn't carrying a sword or axe or anything. So - what Tolkien has these three do DOES seem to be within the limits of human ability. It's nearing those upper limits though.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 02-08-2005 at 09:05 AM. |
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02-12-2005, 06:10 AM | #9 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Wow!! Great discussion points, Forkbeard. I have spent the last few days poring over my books trying to gain a deeper understanding of your thought-provoking questions.
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I'm still preparing my responses to your other questions!!
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Life's too short to eat bad chocolate Last edited by Elanor the Fair : 02-12-2005 at 06:29 AM. |
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02-12-2005, 06:14 AM | #10 | |
Elven Warrior
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These chapters are also the first where Gimli starts to show more decision making and to express strong opinions and thoughts. This is where we start to form a more detailed opinion of his character rather than the rather vague one that we previously have. What does everyone else think?
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02-12-2005, 06:19 AM | #11 | |||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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02-12-2005, 07:17 AM | #12 | |
Elven Warrior
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In book 1, the ponies are scared at the barrows by the presence of danger and they run away to meet Fatty Lumpkin. At the end of the Riders chapter the horses are missing also. A parallel would suggest that the horses ran away from danger and went to meet a friend. I suppose it also parallels the ponies running away from Bree when the inn was attacked. More complicated parallels exist between the giving (or lending) of the horses by Eomer to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, with the giving of the boats in Lothlorien (although this was in Book 2 and not Book 1). In both instances it was unheard of for the leaders of each land to give such precious items to folk who were not of their kindred. Does this foretell the aid that Rohan may offer to assist in the downfall of Mordor just as the elves of Lothlorien lent whatever aid they could for the same cause?? I thought of another interesting parallel. In book 1, Frodo, Pippin and Sam are concealed in the woods of the Shire when the High Elves come past. As the last Elf passes them he turns and identifies Frodo, the other Elves gather around. In Rohan, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are concealed as the riders of Rohan gallop past. When they are almost past, Aragorn identifies them and the riders gather round. There are even parallels with the language in these parts of the text. “Who are you and who is your lord”, Frodo asks Gildor. “Who are you and whom do you serve? asks Eomer of Aragorn. Gildor also tells Frodo that they are Exiles, and Eomer tells Aragorn that they are absent without the King’s leave. It is like a reverse parallel. In the shire, three simple folk meet a group of knowledgeable people of High Elven heritage who are in exile. In Rohan, three knowlegeable people of royal heritage (one who has High Elven heritage – albeit a distant one) meet a group of simple people who are also in “exile” – absent without their King’s leave. Having said this – I have no idea what this parallel would tell us!!! It was the first parallel that sprang to mind when I read Forkbeard’s discussion questions!! - I obviously have very convoluted thought processes, but having spent so much time analysing why this parallel sprang to mind I felt I had to share it with others!
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02-12-2005, 07:24 AM | #13 |
Elf Lord
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Very interesting and insightful. Thanks for a great intro, Forkbeard.
Perhaps another parallel is how the protagonists (and the reader) move from a narrow focus on the affairs of a small group to an awareness of being a small part of a much wider scheme of events. The hobbits, encountering the Elves and the Riders, become aware that they are part of a much bigger story. The Three Hunters similarly: there are much more complex things going, with the tension between Isengard and Rohan, the internal politics of Edoras hinted at, the incursions of orcs etc. |
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