11-10-2004, 04:21 PM | #1 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
Christ in Middle Earth
I'm sure you'll agree with me that there are Christ figures in Middle Earth.
I mean, you can find Christ-like qualities in these characters: -Earendil -Gandalf -Aragorn -Frodo And maybe there are others... So my question is, how is this significant? Why did Tolkien choose to portray many Christ figures? Why didn't he just come up with a single Christ figure that would be central to the action instead? |
11-10-2004, 04:39 PM | #2 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Because Middle-Earth is (in the mythology) the same as our earth. So while the great heroes of the past often show christ-like traits, Christ himself was going to arrive sometime in the fifth age or so.
Besides... the whole comparison is kind of silly.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
11-10-2004, 05:16 PM | #3 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
As you repetedly say!
I think if Tolkien had made one Christ like figure (this excludes the Valar and Eru) then ME would have been a spin off form of the Bible. If Aragorn or Frodo were perfect then everything would be a little predictable. Frodo would have taken The Ring straight to Mount Doom and destroyed it with out a second thought. Aragorn would challenge Sauron and defeat him easily giving Frodo a resonably easier path to Mount Doom. He would then have broken the Black Gate and single handidly(sp.) killed all orcs and other evil creatures in Mordor. You see what I mean?
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
11-10-2004, 05:34 PM | #4 |
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: trondheim, norway
Posts: 1,388
|
yes, good point TD. tolkien himself was very religious, and when he should create a mythology for England, he ceartainly would take in some elements from Christianity.
besides, in NArnia by C.S Lewis, the comparison to the bibel is even more obvious.
__________________
Don't Panic! |
11-10-2004, 05:51 PM | #5 | |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
Quote:
I see your point, TD. You're saying that Tolkien placed some aspects of Christ in each of these character so as not have a flat plot, right? |
|
11-10-2004, 05:57 PM | #6 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
The facts are silly.
The reason I say that, though, is that it strikes me as patently ridiculous to imagine JRRT sitting down and saying to himself "Hmm... how many Christ figures should I include in this story?". Isn't that picture just a teensy bit amusing? I don't believe Tolkien was trying to represent Christ in any of those characters. They were simply good people, and because they were good people they had a number of things in common with Christ. It really doesn't have anything to do with portraying multiple Christ figures. Aslan was meant to represent Christ. Frodo wasn't. I think there's a big difference between the two.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
11-10-2004, 06:06 PM | #7 | |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
Well, now you put that way it DOES sound funny But I still think it holds water.
Quote:
I think there are just too many similarities to ignore here. |
|
11-10-2004, 06:17 PM | #8 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
The similarity doesn't nescessarily mean that they are meant to be representations of Christ, though. Frodo and Aragorn have things in common with Christ because they are heroic characters. Frodo sacrifices himself for others because that is what a truly good person will do. And so on and so forth.
So if you go back to your original post, and ask 'How is this significant', the answer is 'It's not at all significant'. The fact that some of the characters have things in common with Christ (or another individual outside the story) means nothing aside from the fact that they're a bit a like. None of them are supposed to be a representation of or allegory for Christ (In the way that Aslan was, for example).
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
11-11-2004, 02:01 AM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
|
|
11-11-2004, 02:16 AM | #10 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
On the former, it isn't silly at all considering not only Tolkien's faith, but the fact that the literatures he worked on were all Christian and that in his famous essay On Fairy Stories he holds up the Gospel as the ultimate eucatastrophe and the ultimate Fairy Story. I don't know, but it seems to me that a man who does that much thinking on obviously CHristian things may indeed and in fact consciously think about constructing Christ-figures. On the second, you seem to be basically saying that because Frodo isn't the same kind of allegory that Aslan is, then he can't be a Christ-figure. But this is wrong on two levels: Aslan isn't a Christ-figure. A Christ-figure is a type, a typology of a character. Aslan isn't a type. Aslan IS CHRIST in another world--there is no representation intended; he is not a type of Christ, or Christ-like, or reminiscent of Christ--he is intended to be read as if he were Christ, the Lion of Narnia. FB |
|
11-11-2004, 03:40 AM | #11 | ||
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
||
11-11-2004, 08:02 AM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 221
|
In letters of JRRT, Tolkien himself explains that christian themes were present subconsciously at first but during the revisition of LoTR, consciously so.
Of course if a person is writing a novel, they will have stuff in them that automatically comes from their pre-conceived mind-set - subconsciously For example, a western writer will write about stuff that he/she observes in their western countries or characters will have traits in them that are generally particular to the accepted thought processes (through the evolving of those countries). Hence, we are always talking about Greek mythology or philosophy because that is what we have had contact with and their ideas have rubbed off on us. Likewise, Tolkien may have had themes which could be termed Christian, but there is also much stuff that would be against the normal Christian belief (reincarnation, for example). All this is different to the thought that Tolkien wanted to depict obvious Christ-like characters in his works. They may have certain traits but, in a very broad context, these "traits" could be applied to any holy man from the past. What Tolkien was doing, however, was to put aspects of christian "values" into some of his characters, combined with pre-christian, Northern European values of heriosm, valour and so forth. As for the comparison between the Narnia stuff, CS Lewis was blatantly proselytising the Christian religion through Aslan. Tolkien did no such thing with his characters.
__________________
Durin the Sleepless! |
11-11-2004, 08:12 AM | #13 | ||
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
11-11-2004, 11:30 AM | #14 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Well, every writer brings his beliefs and influences into his writing. Tolkien created a world of good and evil with characters that paralleled these two things. Naturaly, your good characters are going to be good people. He shows this throughout the mythology from the First Age on. Tolkien's world differs in many ways to ours on a Christian level IMO. I see him giving us a world where heaven and hell are on earth, not in the hereafter, and counter parts for most good and evil characters. A more equal balance.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
11-11-2004, 02:54 PM | #15 | ||
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
Hi, SGH. Haven't seen you around for some time! (Or is it just me? )
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
11-11-2004, 03:30 PM | #16 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Quote:
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
|
11-11-2004, 04:04 PM | #17 | |||
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|||
11-11-2004, 04:37 PM | #18 | ||
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
11-11-2004, 04:52 PM | #19 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
||
11-11-2004, 05:08 PM | #20 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Quote:
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Writewraiths in Middle Earth II: The Kingdom Rebuilt | Silverstripe | RPG Forum | 395 | 04-22-2003 10:42 AM |
My Middle Earth (Circa TA 2892) | G'broagfran | RPG Forum | 1 | 04-04-2003 01:59 AM |
Middle Earth: dead | Dark Lord Sauron | Middle Earth | 6 | 12-31-2002 06:24 AM |
Is Middle Earth worth fighting for? It seems empty and abandoned to me | Dark Lord Sauron | Middle Earth | 18 | 12-21-2002 02:48 PM |
Middle Earth vs. the RPG paradigm. | Kiri | RPG Forum | 2 | 01-14-2002 05:40 PM |