05-25-2014, 04:32 AM | #1 | |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Gandalf in Moria
In “Journey in the Dark”, Gandalf says, “Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thráin son of Thrór after he was lost.” But since Gandalf has been in Middle-earth for about 2000 years, isn’t it likely that he also entered Moria in the days of its inhabitation by Durin’s Folk, before Durin’s Bane awoke? Are we to assume that Mithrandir never visited Moria in the roughly 900 years between his arrival in Lindon and the fall of Náin I?
In the Peter Jackson movies, Saruman wants Gandalf to enter Moria, hurling snow at the Company of the Ring in the Redhorn Pass. But in the book, Gandalf agrees with Boromir that the mountain storm was caused by Sauron. Quote:
Sauron knew about the Balrog. The orcs in Moria were from Dol Guldur: the Tale of Years for Third Age 2480 says, “(circa) Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.” He must have discovered from his orcs what was lurking there, even if they did not recognize it for what it was. We have no evidence from Tolkien that the Balrog recognized any claims of overlordship by Sauron. It almost certainly knew nothing of the Ring, and likely knew nothing of the Dwarf Ring, either (it killed two of that ring’s bearers); had it discovered either Gandalf’s ring or particularly Frodo’s Ring, that could have posed a considerable risk to Sauron: the Balrog wasn’t likely to return a purloined Ring of Power, either. We know from Reader's Companion that Tolkien’s notes indicate that Saruman posted orcs led by Uglúk on the east side of the Misty Mountains to watch for and waylay the Company of the Ring if they emerged. Did Saruman also know about the Balrog? Finally in this (rambling) vein, what do you suppose Sauron thought once he learned the Company had entered Lórien and that Gandalf had fallen? That someone else had taken possession of the Ring – the Heir of Isildur, of whom Sauron would later learn when Aragorn looked into the palant*r at Aglarond? Would Sauron blame the fall of Angrenost on Aragorn and the Ring – and the fall of Gandalf and the Balrog in Moria on Aragorn, too? |
|
05-25-2014, 01:29 PM | #2 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
Quote:
If the Mountains were blocked, the only road from East to West was through the Gap of Rohan. And while Saruman may not have been entirely trustworthy to Sauron, the others would no longer have seen him as a potential ally either. |
||
10-04-2014, 09:14 AM | #3 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
'Moria' as Earniel says, refers to the Post-habitable Mines of darkness and desolation, not the living light bedecked Kingdom of Yore. (Khazad)
I'd be suprised if Gandalf hadnt visited Khazad-dum in its day, but since it became Moria... only the once previously. As to his "arm has grown long" this is Tolkein's own watercolour: Who you gonna Trust? JRR or The Movies? Hmm.. tricky one... Interesting to see Sauron sporting a Mohican btw! Lets see then- Black, Mohican.. well know for liking the Bling....
More Seriously though, i always thought it was an unknown, and deliberately left so: Gandalf saying his arm has grown long is certainly not positively definitive: its merely conjecture, more a case of saying dont rule out the possibility as crazy, who knows what he can now do? Essentially there are three options: 1) The Scooby-Doo Scenario: It just decided to snow. Nothing supernatural whatsoever. It just happens in mountains. Just at that point, and rather specifically concentrated where they were. Spooky, odd, but entirely natural, and the Mountain would have got away with it if it wasnt for those pesky hobbits having an elf, two men, a dwarf and a wizard with them... 2) It was the Balrog wot done it If we are rounding up all the usual suspects- we cant discount this possibility (see below) 3) It Was the Ill will of Caradhras. Known as an evil will and certainly Gimli suspects the Will of the mountain. Perhaps though it was prompted or woken up by another external force? Sauron or The Balrog? The Balrog had been snoozing under Caradhras for a fair old while- perhaps this is why the mountain had an evil spirit? For myself i think it was the ill will of The Mountain itself: when the Balrog senses Gandalfs counter-spell when trying to lock the Door in Moria: both he and the Balrog appear suprised. If so - it follows that it is unlikely The Balrog had sensed them or knew of them attempting to cross the pass over the mountains... I'm assuming Sauron didn't know the Balrog even existed or was in Moria or had awoken- and i suspect he ideally didnt want the Ring being lost under millions of tons of rock in the dark again... so i don't see him wanting them to go through Moria. Of course he may well have never have suspected they'd even consider it seriously, and he perhaps did wish them to have to continue in the wilderness west of the mountains where the hunt was up with Wild wargs and regiments of Spies criss-crossing the air... |
|
10-14-2014, 01:07 AM | #4 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 40
|
I believe the evil will of Caradhras comes directly from the evil that is living near it, the Balrog. Tolkien leaves it kind of open-ended in the book, giving the mountain an air of "living" qualities, in his usual genius prose. But that's just his style, I don't think he means to say the mountain was actually living, but that evil will can be transposed upon inanimate objects, i.e., the Balrog turning Caradhras into The Cruel. Butterbeer, thanks for posting the watercolor, AWESOME!
__________________
Thus he came alone to Angband's gates. . . and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. |
10-14-2014, 07:32 PM | #5 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
As for Quote:
__________________
Uruk-hai, or the journey to there. |
||
10-19-2014, 04:49 PM | #6 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
.. and many not categorized in the Red book, nor known to the "Wise". But i'm curious - how can you be sure it isnt a latent effect of the long-sleeping Balrog? Wither comes the essence of will over matter? |
|
10-21-2014, 05:21 AM | #7 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 40
|
Hear, hear Butterbeer! I'm curious as to the same.
__________________
Thus he came alone to Angband's gates. . . and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. |
11-22-2014, 12:17 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Definitely, not latent effect of Balrog.
My take is, since Balrog is a lesser spirit of fire, he is restricted by his element. His principal weapon is a fiery whip, not spells or ability to move objects. It was never mentioned that valaraukar were great at magic Though, like Gandalf, he can do a little conjuring tricks like growing tall and menacing, or opening some doors with an appropriate spell (seems, as opposed to Gandalf, he doesn't suffer memory lapses ), but he can't make the stones to move, otherwise he would free himself long before the dwarves breached his crypt.
__________________
Uruk-hai, or the journey to there. |
12-13-2014, 11:00 PM | #9 | ||
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
||
12-19-2014, 02:36 AM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Hm...It is all Gandalf's hearsay.
Considering how "good" were Gandalf's spells at opening the doors, I would say that his spells on locking the doors were equally ineffective. Quote:
Therefore the door has been opened with mere use of muscles, as Gandalf himself has mentioned . In this department Gandalf was out of his league, so in order not to look like an inept braggart he makes up things like he would put a stronger spell, if he would have more time, and he was challenged with a more powerful foe, who was able to break all his so-called "spells".
__________________
Uruk-hai, or the journey to there. |
|
12-28-2014, 02:12 PM | #11 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Eh, no. It is a first person statement when Gandalf says it; it would be hearsay when I quote it.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
12-28-2014, 03:15 PM | #12 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Right. Let put it this way: it's Frodo's recollection and interpretation of Gandalf's words and actions, but it doesn't change the fact that, according to Gandalf's story, there was non of a real magic that was locking the door. Therefore, why do you need to bother with "terrible" spells on the unlocked door, if you can open it by a mere push of muscles, even if it would be under a strong, proper spell ?
__________________
Uruk-hai, or the journey to there. Last edited by Olmer : 12-28-2014 at 09:07 PM. |
12-29-2014, 12:24 AM | #13 | ||||||
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
We’re rather far afield from my first post in this thread; but let us continue, and perhaps we can circle back around.
First, if we may, let’s examine two of your assertions together, Olmer. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In this vein, we should note that Galadriel in the story tells Sam that, “[W]hat your folk would call magic … I do not understand clearly …; … they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.” In other words, mortals confuse the “Art” of the Eldar with the goeteia, or necromancy, of Sauron and his minions. In a long letter to Milton Waldman in 1951 (Letters of JRR Tolkien # 131), Tolkien points out that Quote:
Quote:
All that to make these points.
Quote:
In only twenty-eight years in the Third Age, from 1974 to 2002, four of the great kingdoms that opposed Sauron’s power were either overthrown or grievously weakened:
It always made sense to me that the “rousing” of the Balrog might have due to Sauron’s evil will, and that the mining activities of the Dwarves “awakened” him altogether. (They must have made a mighty big “Dwarvish racket”.) He knew all the deep places beneath Khazad-dûm, places of which the Dwarves knew nothing at all, places beneath the deepest part of the Endless Stair; so apparently he’d had plenty of time to wander around and get to know the territory. Maybe that was only after he awoke; but I suspect he’d wandered around down there even before his age-long nap, searching for a good place to hide. ─╫─ Has it occurred to anybody else that the reason Gandalf broke the Bridge was because Aragorn and Boromir decided to join him in the fight? They would undoubtedly have been killed. Did Gandalf sacrifice himself primarily to preserve the Heir of Isildur and the Heir of the Stewards? Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Last edited by Alcuin : 12-29-2014 at 12:44 AM. |
||||||
12-29-2014, 09:59 AM | #14 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Once again... great post, Alcuin!
Hope you also have had a very Happy Christmas, and will have a Happy New Year!
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
05-08-2015, 08:01 AM | #15 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
It's pretty clear that the eastern end of Moria was the occupied portion. The true Khazad-dum. There were some passage-ways from there to the west, mostly toward some of their mining operations I suppose - plus one long route to the west gate. Even if the west gate was only closed "temporarily" in mid-Second Age (see entry for SA year 1697: "The gates of Moria are shut"), who would really want to travel that way - except out of desperation? Dwarves for sure. The Noldor were equally fine with it. But anybody else going to visit the Dwarves in Khazad-dum would go straight to the east gate. Those coming from the west would cross the mountains over the Redhorn Pass, and down the Dimrill Stair. It really sounds like a pretty easy crossing - and MUCH preferable to a closed-in, pitch-black tunnel you had to walk through for days! So - I suspect that for over 900 years, nearly 1000 years, Gandalf and many others regularly visited the Dwarves of Moria. But always through the east gate, and barely into the complex. Men probably traded with them - maybe Elves too - food for metal implements. All out by the east gate.
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
|
05-10-2015, 04:48 PM | #16 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
|
|
05-10-2015, 09:48 PM | #17 | ||
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
“Moria” is a Sindarin word, and sounds like a nickname the Noldor of Eregion might have given Khazad-dûm in jest and in private – it’s probably not a cognomen the Dwarves would readily use for their greatest city-state in its glory. Some Noldor might even have taken refuge there when Sauron overran Eregion. (Not many: Elrond led the survivors north to a fortifiable valley: the foundation of Rivendell.)
After Durin’s Bane emerged, though, “[The] Black Pit” was a good name for the place. Elves, Men, Hobbits, Ents, and even Dwarves used it. Quote:
Galadriel had high regard Durin’s Folk. She was a friend of Aulë the Vala, respected the craftsmanship of the Dwarves, as well as their military acumen and combat skills. She passed through Khazad-dûm from West Gate to East Gate at least once (in one telling), when Celebrimbor and the M*rdain against her counsel elected to consort with Annatar (Sauron in disguise) to make the Rings of Power. I think she may have used that passage more often, however: and she also knew more of the rhyme that Gimli quoted only in part: Quote:
|
||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
How many times had Gandalf been to Moria? | Valandil | Middle Earth | 15 | 11-17-2006 09:15 AM |
LOTR Discussion Project: Book V, Chapter 4: The Siege of Gondor | Beren3000 | LOTR Discussion Project | 31 | 02-09-2006 02:46 AM |
LotR Discussion Project: The Two Towers--Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider | mithrand1r | LOTR Discussion Project | 14 | 10-25-2005 09:55 AM |
Gandalf and Moria | Elvet | Middle Earth | 4 | 03-23-2002 04:10 PM |