10-25-2002, 08:07 PM | #1 | ||||||||
The Tall
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Húrin's Ordeal
Húrin is regarded as the mightiest warrior to ever lived.
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Was he conquered by Morgoth or not?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-25-2002, 09:05 PM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
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In my oppinion I don't think so. If that where me I probably would have tried to comite suiscide or somthing. I think he was the best for the job. His story was so sad but he won in the end ( in my opinnion of course )
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If envy were an illness the whole world would be sick (old Danish proverb) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss, and they buried him in a mound of stones beside the pass; and a green turf came there, and yellow flowers bloomed upon it amid the barrenness of stone, until the world was changed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh Potter you Rotter, Oh what have you done Your killing off the students, you think it's good fun |
10-25-2002, 09:38 PM | #3 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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As Finrod said to Andreth Maedhros, "Ever you amaze my thought." This is another tough one. I wouldn't say that he was conquered in the end because he lived, but it would seem that the curse of Morgoth did come full circle when Morwen died.
It is sad that he spent all those years in captivity, tight liped about the location of Gondolin, and then when he is released makes his way there and only gets to a point and can go no further and calls out to Turgon. That seems so foolish after all he went through to conceal that secret. Very sad life for the man. |
10-25-2002, 11:36 PM | #4 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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10-26-2002, 12:32 AM | #5 | |
The Tall
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Although he was greatly affected by Morgoth, I think that Húrin was not conquered by Morgoth. He defied him and he lived long enough to see his wife in the end.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-26-2002, 01:59 AM | #6 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: Húrin's Ordeal
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-26-2002, 06:23 AM | #7 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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No, Húrin wasn't conquered, he never gave in to Morgoth. But at SGH said, it was a bit foolish to go straight to Turgon after he was released, revealing his realm to the spies of Morgoth. And in Doriath he needed help from Melian to fully understand what Morgoth had deviced for him.
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10-26-2002, 10:59 AM | #8 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes, it wasn't exactly good thinking, but if anyone could be excused for being a bit wonky and not thinking with crystal clarity , it would be Húrin, after all that he had gone through.
I like that section, Artanis, when Melian ignores Húrin's insults, which were really pretty nasty, and goes straight to the heart of the matter, which was that he was seeing things all twisted because of Morgoth's lies. I think it was very gracious of her to not "take offense", because she knew he wasn't thinking right. And Húrin's response was so gracious, too, when he realized the truth of what she was saying. What a man!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-26-2002 at 11:01 AM. |
10-26-2002, 01:42 PM | #9 | ||
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10-27-2002, 11:31 AM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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I am very sad to do that, but well it must be!
The story of Húrins realise is given as far as his going towards Nargothrond in "The History of Middle-Earth" volume 11. It is called "Húrins Wanderings" and it makes his story much more sad then it is described in "The Silmarillion" and also his deeds show much more foolishness. I will only give a short summary: First he goes to Hithlum. But he only gathered a small band of outlaws and can't cause a general rebellion. There upon he gives the land to Lorgan the Easterling and left with his band towards Brethil. But when they reached the dale of Sirion he steels away from his companion and searches for Gondolin, ending with his cry for Turgon like it is in "The Silmarillion". His companions went into Brethil but are dealed with like outlaws and deported to the Teglin crossing. When Húrin went away from Gondolin despairing in his search he goes to the stone and finds Morwen. Embittered by her starving in the wild without help from the people of Brethil he goes to Ephel Brandir. His coming and his deeds caused a civil war among the folk of Haleth in which the last descendants of Haleth died and the community was broken. With that the full-written story ends but we learn out of some notes that, Húrin went to the Teglin-crossing and joined there his companions again. They were joined also by some people of Brethil and went forth to Nargothrond. That is all that JRR Tolkien wrote about the story late in his life. The chapter "Of the ruin of Doriath" is entirely the product of Christopher Tolkien. And there are a lot of things in it that are not at all even suggested by writings of his father. One of these is the making of the Nauglam*r for Felagund. In any version of JRR Tolkien Húrin brings the full treasure of Nargothrond to Thingol and the Nauglam*r is made in Menegroth. A second more important thing is the final deliverance of Húrin from the spell of Morgoth by Melian. That is an invention of Christopher Tolkien. As far as we know JRR Tolkien envisaged him going forth from Menegroth in embitterment. We do not know how JRR Tolkien had seen the death of Húrin but I don't think he would have outlived the realisation of his deeds (I think he killed himself when he realised what he had done under the spell). Before I had read "The History of Middle-Earth" Húrin was my favourite character in Tolkiens-World, and it was really very sad for me to read "Húrins Wanderings", but the Narn i chîn Húrin is a tragedy and that doesn't allow any kind of happy end at all. Respectfully Findegil |
10-27-2002, 02:49 PM | #11 |
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Findegil, I'm speechless. Are you saying Christopher Tolkien invented what happened in Doriath? And that the spell actually was not broken as long as Húrin lived? Shocking news, that is. Still, perhaps, JRRT's version is more realistic, given the power of Morgoth and the long years of Húrin's captiveness.
But I won't change my opinion about the Man. Few could have endured the malice of Morgoth better than he did. But I have to change my mind and say he was conquered, and he carried out his deeds exactly to Morgoth's wish. And that's what makes this version much more sad than the story in the Sil. Well, one good thing is, I understand there's treasures waiting for me in HoME!
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10-28-2002, 04:54 AM | #12 |
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In the silmarillion when the blanket is lifted (or whatever you like to call it) from his eyes, he says something about he didn't know why but he was sapposed to leave the Nagl*mer with king Thingol
and that he had finished all that Morgoth meant for him to do... OR am I totally wrong (don't have the book in hand right now, sister borowed it)
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If envy were an illness the whole world would be sick (old Danish proverb) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss, and they buried him in a mound of stones beside the pass; and a green turf came there, and yellow flowers bloomed upon it amid the barrenness of stone, until the world was changed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh Potter you Rotter, Oh what have you done Your killing off the students, you think it's good fun |
10-28-2002, 10:45 AM | #13 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Oh the ruin of Doriath is conjecture, and the mythology itself is extremely contradictory. I say enjoy the Silmarillion, and don't worry so much about what is "canon"
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10-28-2002, 06:04 PM | #14 | ||
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And don't change your mind!! Húrin wasn't conquered - he may have carried out Morgoth's deeds, but it was not knowingly. The cry to Turgon was not out of the intent to reveal his hiding place, but out of agony. Don't you think so?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-28-2002, 06:09 PM | #15 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Findegil - yes, it is a tragedy, and there is no happy ending, but there are some beautiful and noble things that happen in the story that we can admire. (ps - I like how you sign your name with "respectfully" - it's so nice and courteous!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-29-2002, 05:01 AM | #16 | |
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In the Sil version he was not conquered, but he needed help from a Maia: With the assistance of Melian, he relieves himself from Morgoth. His last words to Thingol is significant: "But I am his thrall no more".
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10-29-2002, 01:51 PM | #17 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I guess I'm thinking of "conquered" in terms of giving up and making intentional evil choices as a pattern in your life. I think when there is a "spell" on someone, it's not their fault. I see frustration, poor judgement, etc. in Húrin, but I don't see him "giving in" to Morgoth like many other "evil men" referred to by JRRT (i.e., those that openly serve Morgoth).
Maybe we mean the same thing? However, the whole "thrall" issue is complicated, and JRRT was of several minds about it himself. And I really enjoy your avatar whenever I see one of your posts
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-29-2002 at 01:53 PM. |
10-30-2002, 04:27 PM | #18 | |||
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10-30-2002, 07:50 PM | #19 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I would agree that by your definition that he was indeed conquered, too. I think we are thinking the same way - great minds think alike, don't they?
WOW - thanks so much for the link - that's really lovely! I've never seen any LoTR art, perhaps I should start checking it out. Do you have any other links or suggestions?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-31-2002, 07:37 AM | #20 | ||
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