09-18-2004, 02:50 AM | #1 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Good Orcs?
Can you have good Orcs. You have evil men lik the Haradrim and Easterlings and you could easily have evil hobbit's, dwarves or elves. But the theory of a good orc doesn't sound plausible. Can you have them?
What about other evil creatures like trolls and Wargs?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-18-2004, 03:42 AM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
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You can have Orcs who are more self centerd as was shown in Lord of the Rings. Orcs who don't want to be dominated by Sauron, but they will always be evil. The orcs in question from LotR wanted to leave Sauron and have their own land. Though orcs are always evil due to the fact thats how and why they were created, malkor created the orcs and the trolls in spite of the valar.
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09-18-2004, 03:45 AM | #3 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Orcs were created for evil, but men were created for good and some of them turned evil.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-18-2004, 09:34 AM | #4 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth Series:
Quote:
http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=9238
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-18-2004, 09:42 AM | #5 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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So orcs were not evil to start out with. Were there any good orcs during the Third Age or by that time were they all completly twisted.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-18-2004, 09:52 AM | #6 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-18-2004, 09:56 AM | #7 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Did they become evil during time o was that just the way men, elves, dwarves, hobbits etc. percieve them.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-18-2004, 10:00 AM | #8 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-18-2004, 05:38 PM | #9 | |
AngAdan
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Quote:
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 04-19-2011 at 04:01 PM. |
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09-19-2004, 02:14 AM | #10 |
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I feel that people are overlooking one major factor in the creation of the Orcs. The huge factor is this, they WERE formerly elves. They could not have been men, at least not the origional batch created by Morgoth. My reasoning for this is that in the times of war between Morgoth and the Elves before the sun rose there were orcs. As we all should know, men's awakening coincided with the rising of the sun. Therefore if there were no men before that time how could men be used in the creation of the origional orcs? Although Tolkien himself never officially said that orcs deffinitely came from elvses this must be irefutable evidence. Furthermore even if there were good orcs I don't feel any man, elf, dwarf, or any other of the free peoples of ME would deem them good. For example if they were more intelligent would chickens think humans were good? We eat their species, as the ords eat human flesh if they can. Though it is out of neccesity for them we deem anything that eats us under his own intelligence as evil. So Perhaps there were good Orcs, good on their own habitual terms. I don't feel there were any Orcs so good that they could have bonded or formed an allegiance with men or elves or any other free peoples. Though I am not Tolkien and I cannot say what is true.
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09-19-2004, 12:31 PM | #11 |
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You need to read "Myths Transformed." As posted above, Tolkien came to believe that Orcs were not originally Elvish, or at least not wholly. Read the thread that SGH provides the link to.
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09-20-2004, 02:32 PM | #12 |
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It does not even state there that they did not or even that they did form from elves. Though we can say that in the other post(the linked thread by SGH) it is said that there woiuld be no orcs then because they would be able to choose orc or elf. Yet I think that if Aule could create the dwarves o his own, could not the greatest among the valar(at least if he wascounted as vala he would be) create a new life using elves as a basis!? I think that Melkor could have created new life out of severe missery of elves! He made the orgigional orcs irredeimable and so spawned, as he elves do, little orclings. As tolkien has never said anywhich way this is a possibility.
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09-20-2004, 03:57 PM | #13 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
As for the origin of Orcs: Tolkien says they came from Men and that was his final word on it. We can not change his ideas or his story nomatter how much we don't agree with his changes.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-20-2004, 04:15 PM | #14 |
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Orcs couldn't have been men since there were orcs before men even came on the scene.
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09-20-2004, 05:30 PM | #15 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-23-2004, 01:39 PM | #16 |
Elven Warrior
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Pardon my skepticism SisterGoldenHair, but I just can't believe that orcs came from men, and I also don't feel Tolkien actually would say definitly that they came from men. Perhaps you could use a quote from "Myths Transformed"(Which is out of which book?) to support your claim. Not to mention there are several changes to Tolkiens works. He revised hundreds of times without ever getting rid of the origional. I was reading "The Lost Road" yesterday and there are two different versions at least to the fall of Numenor. Now I could say that the version Tolkien did not ievitably use is still justified and can be used to back up my claim. However it wouldn't because although Tolkien himself wrote it, he did not write it as final in his works. So I wonder if this proof you "have" is final in Tolkiens world. Not to mention his son Christopher edited a lot of his works, there may be a possible error in the consistancy of your claim? Im just a skeptic, don't mind me...
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-23-2004, 01:52 PM | #17 | |
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From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth series.
Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-23-2004, 02:14 PM | #18 | |
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Quote:
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09-23-2004, 02:52 PM | #19 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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When Tolkien says: "not of this kind," he is saying that the Orcs were not created by any of the powers, like the Dwarves were. They were never puppets originating from a creation of any of the Aniur, but were already an existing creation by Ilvuatar that was taken by Morgoth and bred into Orcs.
Also, the fact that much of this information is in books that are published posthumously by CT, does not make it not Tolkien's thoughts and/or work.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
09-23-2004, 03:04 PM | #20 |
Elven Warrior
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I never said it was not his work, but Christopher says, "MY FATHER" this part is Christophers work. Christopher is Assuming. Tolkien did write that, as far as we know, it was his ideas, as far as we know, but did he intend for that to be his final definition? I don't think so. And it was never stated that there was a final statement. To say that Tolkien said this and meant this and only this is inane. Tolkien did not specify clearly and dfefinitely. The end of that. Now there is only one real qrgument, did orcs come from elves or men? I say elves, how can orcs have come from something that did not exist before orcs? Like it is said not even melkor could breath life into a being and so the men who were Not awake could not be woken by melkor. Furthermore the orcs are not a creation on their own altogether as melkor could not have created something and given it life without eru's assistance. Soooo I fell that orcs came from elves.
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