02-20-2005, 02:29 AM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
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Orcs and Goblins
In the LotR the evil minions are mainly Orcs, while in the Hobbits they are Goblins.
I am pretty sure Goblins are mentioned at least once in the LotR (but I would not remember where). My question is: are Goblins and Orcs just a different name for the same thing? Or are they two different races? What do we know about the "genetic pool" of the two races? (i.e. does one descend from the other?) |
02-20-2005, 02:39 AM | #2 |
avocatus diaboli
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Ooo! You've a dog avvie! How many animal avvies do we have here now anyway?
I think they're the same thing. In the index of the Letters it says: Goblins, see Orcs...
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02-20-2005, 10:30 AM | #3 |
The Intermittent One
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i think it mentions in the hobbit something along the lines of the orcs being the big goblins of the mountains, but i could be wrong
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02-20-2005, 10:31 AM | #4 |
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Yes, they are the same thing essentially.
Goblins was sometimes the name given for the orcs that dwelled in the mountains..
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02-20-2005, 11:39 AM | #5 |
AngAdan
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Same thing; representations of different laguages. Orc (Orch) is representative of the Anduniac word, similar to the Sindarin word and Nandorin word (Yrch) and related to the Black Speech (which adopted some Sindarin forms) word (Uruk). Goblins (and in the hobbit, Hob-Goblins for large ones) seems to be representative of the hobbit word, possibly felated to the language of the Eorlingas. (of course, in this world, the reason is that JRRT used goblins in The Hobbit, and wanted a new word in LoTR)
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02-21-2005, 11:43 AM | #6 | |
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03-26-2005, 09:37 PM | #7 | |
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Er.. They seem to be diffrent but JRR Tolken said they were the same...
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03-31-2005, 11:35 PM | #8 |
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well the reeason they seem the same me9996 is because the Hobbit is a childrens books. I love it and almsot love it more but it is written for a younger audience where as LOTR was much more grown up so the orcs became less bumbling idiots to heartless cruel killers. THats why. But yes its just different name same beast.
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04-01-2005, 02:34 AM | #9 | |
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04-01-2005, 10:20 AM | #10 | ||
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02-27-2006, 02:03 PM | #11 |
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Okay, so orcs and goblins are the same just live in different places and speak a different language. Got it. My question is, and please dont bite my head off for this, but werent orcs once elves? I may have gotten this info from the movie but the people who wrote it had some knowlege of the books and I don't think they would just make that up for the movie. Would they? If this is true they would live forever too right? If so, its safe to assume that some of them fought at the War of The Last Allience and The War of the Ring? Im sorry i cant seem to find my books to look this up and cant remember reading anything about this.
P.S. I would like to thank Spock for helping me find the right place to put this.
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02-27-2006, 03:19 PM | #12 |
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it is possible that orcs(goblins) were bred from the avari or possibly some of the eldar, but it is also possible that they were bred from the atani, in the sil, there is mainly the elf version of descent, but in UT (IIRC) there is mention of perhaps the man version, of course it is entriely possioble that orcs came from both avari/eldar andatani, which is the belief that i hold to
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02-27-2006, 03:54 PM | #13 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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IIR-Orcs were bred by Melkor in Utummo in the 1st Age. They were bred in mockery of Elves.
Hobbits called them goblins.
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02-27-2006, 04:08 PM | #14 | |
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02-27-2006, 04:16 PM | #15 | ||
An enigma in a conundrum
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Hope this helps a bit.
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02-27-2006, 04:16 PM | #16 |
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One of Tolkiens later conceptions, mentioned in Morgoths' Ring, is that orcs were just beasts, with know consciousness and in the shape of the children of Iluvater to mock them. I also think the word goblin is just an english translation of the sindarin word orch, plural yrch and Goblins = Orcs.
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02-27-2006, 05:15 PM | #17 | ||
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Tolkien earler conceptions seem to me more appealing, just because they are more consistent with what we see in his published works: the Hobbit and the LOTR. Ugluk, the chief of Isengarders, is a competent leader, who didn't abandon his "lads" and died gloriously in a single combat against Eomer. And Grishnakh from Mordor is a sort of Secret Service guy, wicked and vicious. Any one of them could be called a "beast without consciousness".
As to Faramir's question, Orcs were bred by Morgoth from cruelly twisted elves - that is Silmarillion concept. In later works (Myths transformed) Tolkien revised this conception, naming lesser Maiar, beasts and finally Men as the source for orcs. In later case he had to shift the time of Men's awakening much earlier (not on the first day of the Sun). But still the idea: Quote:
Funny how in his later works he tried to make Elves holier and holier, seriously purged Galadriel's story etc. Orc immortality is a very difficult question. I have argued myself many times that they should be immortal, like Elves. But in Myths Transformed it is written: Quote:
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02-27-2006, 05:22 PM | #18 |
Spaceman Spiff
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Wow, thanx for all the info guys.
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02-27-2006, 05:27 PM | #19 | |
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To paraphrase Ron Weasley: "we're scary; brilliant, but scary".
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02-27-2006, 05:32 PM | #20 | |
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Actually, if some more scary guys come here, the topic is such, that we can be at one another's throats for a month. Really, Faramir, it was a very difficult and controversial question! |
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