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Old 05-11-2005, 01:10 AM   #1
Lief Erikson
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The life of Azah, the warrior maiden

*This story is quite different from any of the others I've posted here. I really am fond of myth, so I wrote one to please myself. I'll be writing more, though I probably won't post them here. Critical comments for this story are very welcome. I hope that those who read it enjoy it.*


The life of Azah, the warrior maiden

This is the tale of the birth of Athor Atardii, Guardian of the Elvion Triangle, Blue Rider, Lord of Elerev. The birth of he who smashed the might of the dark world of Visal, brought paradise to the land of Stikalth and imprisoned the Fierce Ones Ca-Ashor and Fade. His exploits and valiant deeds cannot all be recounted. His hideous failings marred the surface of the world. His pride, cruelty and madness are things of legend, but they cannot banish the glories of the man who led the world Erinosad out of its early days of night and into a morning sun that was to shine upon the world for centuries.



The one who was to become famous as Athor’s mother was named Azah Melek. Her golden hair was like a haystack, flowing down to her feet and bushy as a tree trunk. Her eyebrows were large and also bushy. She wore the green hide of a dragon she had slain to cover her body, though the garment did not cover her left breast. She was more proud then the greatest king, more fierce then a cornered bear. She moved like a monkey, hopping from place to place, capable of moving through trees more easily then over land (her hair knew better then to let itself become snagged).

Azah’s weapons she had fashioned with her own hands. The most dangerous of these was a whip formed from the unbreaking flesh torn from the bowels the body of the dragon she’d slain. All over this tongue of flesh were embedded the teeth from the dragon’s jaws, each as long as a sword hilt and as sharp as the keenest blade. Her other weapons included short throwing spears that she had fashioned of wood and stone. All of these weapons she had written upon with runes, the hidden words of magic that were then known to many, and which lent power, spirit and a limited understanding to those things upon which they were inscribed.

Azah’s face was hard and fair, her eyes black as deepest coal. Those who looked upon her feared her. She had slain many of those that in the past had loved her dearly, and had turned in hatred upon the nations that had once embraced her as one of their greatest. She had allied herself with barbarian tribes to fight them. The barbarians attempted to ravage her while she slept, yet she in a single engagement slew thirty of them. Following this they respected her, and followed her warily into battle.

The newborn nation of Elerev, protected by the Rainbow Order was Azah’s most hated foe. The nation had come from a wild people that were harried hither and thither by the god Brell they worshipped. When they turned to any god other then him, he jealously smote them with a thousand ailments, or brought forth other tribes to wreak destruction on them. Finally he had established them in their own country. Their leader had once been the most cowardly of men. He was a warrior named Tirdin, whom Azah had known well and despised. He fled whenever attacked and would not protect his own family when they were endangered. Finally he had pled for Brell’s help, and fifty years later he came back from the hidden place to which Brell took him. He was transformed, his name no longer Tirdin but Abinrav, and he showed the Elerevians their homeland. He established the capital of his people’s new country at a city called Delener, and he proclaimed the nation of Elerev.

Azah had been born a part of this nation. She had come to hate them though, because they mocked and sought to reform her from her wild forest ways. She slew those that came after her to change her, and then those that came after next came to kill her. From them she fled, for at that time she was not yet ready.

When she learned of the horrors a wicked dragon was wreaking upon the native peoples of a land nearby her, she determined to make herself a new home. She gave presents of food caught from the wild to the people, and then she set upon the dragon and killed it (It was then that she fashioned her whip). When these people, though grateful, refused to accept her as their Guardian Goddess, she spat in the faces of their leaders, slew them when they sought to punish her, and left the survivors to find her own way again.

By then most of those living in those parts hated her. An archer from Elerev shot her in the foot with an arrow when he saw her climbing a tree, and it was at that time that she realized she needed throwing spears. His aim was true, and ever after that one of her feet was lame. This was a serious disadvantage, for never again could she run and leap so fleetingly as was her wont, except over short distances.

In fury because of her wounded foot, Azah gathered the barbarian enemies of Elerev. She brought them against the nation, determined to crush it out of existence. Abinrav and his forces smashed her army, and his one remaining daughter, Sihona, pursued Azah into the woods.

Azah could not escape, for Sihona was more fleet then the wind and was learning the power of a shape-shifter. Her throwing spears, which never before had missed a target, flew wild as the wood itself turned from loyalty to Azah to favor Sihona.

“You have betrayed me!” Azah screamed in despair at the wild lands of Elerev that once had been her home and closest friend. “You have turned me over to death!”

She drew her whip and leapt high, into the topmost branches of a tree. With the teeth of the dead dragon she smashed the treacherous boughs and branches, cleaving herself an open path with which to strike at Sihona.

Sihona came at Azah with her curved sword and battled her amongst the tree tops. Sihona’s blade was silver merged with magic, burned together and engraved with runes from the high realms of the air. More keen and fearsome a blade even then Azah’s whip, it met the thrashing dragon thread evenly. Sihona danced about the lame Azah, who found herself hard pressed to keep up with the swift and lethal assailant. Sihona had become more skilled then most warriors ever had been. Her power raged about her, the tempests of the air buffeted her opponents, the blades of grass uprooted themselves and flew in Azah’s eyes. Sword met with whip and proved the stronger. It finally burst the length of Azah’s weapon.

Her long black hair swirling about her beautiful, pale face, Sihona slashed inward and severed Azah’s unarmored left leg completely. Azah fell but not far. The wind seized her and held her where she was, pinioned and at Sihona’s mercy. Sihona’s deep blue eyes looked into Azah’s black, hate filled ones. Sihona raised her sword to strike.

Yet suddenly, above Sihona’s head the sky turned purple and red. Tongues of lightning flashed from the heavens and surrounded Azah like seven arms. They plucked her wounded body easily from the wind’s hands and bore it away. A spirit of magic and power had claimed her as its own. Sihona could not hope to defeat this beast, though with the glorious weapon Brell had given him, her father might have done so.

The creature was like a brilliant torch in the sky. It had six heads and twenty arms. It was a giant, as large as a hill. Purple and gold flames roared from its mouth and burned from its body. The thing needed no weapon, for fire consumed whatever he directed it to strike.

The creature bore Azah aloft into the air, and she remained still, a maimed being, powerless and weaponless before its might.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection.

~Oscar Wilde, written from prison


Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."

Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-11-2005 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 05-11-2005, 01:13 AM   #2
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The beast laid Azah down on a hill and transformed itself into a bed of flowers about her. It easily ended the pain of her wounded leg.

“I am a god of Eleson, the realm of the deep south,” he told her. “Should it be channeled properly, your power would be more fierce and terrible then that of any mortal. I wish to mate with you, a warrior princess among men.”

Azah’s defiance raised its head. “Never has anyone had me, god or man, and none shall do so. I have sworn to break any that so touches me. You, of all of them, as a god should have known better. You are a fool, and always shall be.”

Her pride was higher then the mountains, and the spirit was startled by this rebuke. In anger, he chose to destroy Azah. As she lay helpless on the hill where he’d left her, he sent five deadly serpents to attack her. Each serpent was as thick as a great boulder and long as twenty trees, lined up. The beasts opened their great fanged mouths to consume the one legged Azah, but in fear, the spirit of the dragon protected itself. Its essence still existed within the armor Azah wore, and in terror for its own safety, it turned its rock hard substance into a great spear.

The serpents reared their heads, higher then the treetops, but with the spear that had grown from what had been Azah’s clothing, she battled them. In her hands the spear was too strong to be endured. She smote jaw and tooth from the fanged monsters’ mouths, blasted their eyes to bloody heaps and with her bare hands, ripped their tongues from their mouths. Plunging her spear into the necks of the beasts, she tossed the bodies away from her hill into the woods.

In relief, the dragon spear became a garment once more.

Greatly impressed, the spirit creature returned to her, near begging her to be his. Though physically exhausted, she scornfully rejected him once more.
Hatred filled the spirit of the south, yet he hid in the woods, biding his time. Soon Azah fell into a deep slumber, out of exhaustion from her battle. Then the spirit transformed himself into thirty mice. Quietly they scuttled up to Azah’s body. In the depths of her sleep, careful so as not to wake her, they stole her clothes from her. The creature took the dragon hide and threw it into a lake, where it doubtless lingers to this day.

When Azah awoke, she found herself naked and hastened to fashion herself garments out of the leaves from nearby bushes (she could no longer climb the trees). Realizing that the spirit of the south intended to return to assault her with some new peril, Azah begged the nearby trees for aid.

“Please lend me your wood,” she whispered. “Look how the mighty serpents that the spirit brought here mangled your brothers in their passing. The spirit cares nothing for your lives, but I do. The trees of Elerev betrayed me to my great cost, but please do not you also turn from me. Lend me your wood, and whisper to the forest creatures to bring me string that I may fashion a bow and arrows. Then I will avenge the blood of your family, and will protect myself from the god’s lust.”

The trees gave their assent. They lent her wood from their boughs, and the mice of the forest brought her string and sharp stones. Azah built herself a great bow, so powerful that few could bend it but her. She inscribed in her weapons runes of power, and then she covered them with leaves on the hill. She rested on the hill then, her preparations finished, waiting for her next adversary.

The god came forth, bringing on a chain fifty bears. He turned his six heads to look on her, and he laughed in scorn and hate. “I have baffled you and brought your end. When you slept in the night I took your garments, and there is no dragon now to save you. Slender leaves are scarce protection from the crushing claws of wild animals.”

“The forest contains within it more power then you know, gutless and most foolish of the gods of the south,” Azah returned.

The god gnashed its teeth at her in rage. “We shall see who cries victory at the end of this day!”

He released the bears, and they plunged forward toward Azah in a vast swarm, a great mound of fur and strength by themselves.

Azah drew her bow and arrows from their concealment and began to shoot. The bears were so close together that each one pierced fifteen of the woodland creatures. The wrecked and dying animals surrounded Azah, and she raised her bow again, shooting her sixth arrow into the god’s heart.
Agony smashed the giant’s strength, destroyed his power and wrecked his body. Azah shot her next arrows then, one into each of the god’s heads, and the monster fell dead, slain by Azah and the forest.

Azah shouted then for joy, and the trees cried out their victory as well. Azah loved the woods and they bonded with her more closely then anyone could. They willingly formed themselves into a woodland palace for Azah, and trees and woodland creatures guarded her home in the deep woods jealously. She was their queen, and they were her servants.

Yet their rejoicing could not long endure. When news of the god’s demise reached his older brother Mantim in Eleson, he was incensed. He turned in rage to the forests where he was rumored to have fallen, and through clever inquiry and deceit, he tricked from the woods the location of the god’s killer.
Mantim came to her palace with hatred in his heart and disguised himself as a sapling. Thus he gained entry into the palace and passed all its guards, who believed him to be one of them. The creature came before Azah and, like his brother, was smitten by her beauty. However, this did not cease the hatred in his heart. Hate and lust were intermingled, and he poured out praise and devotion upon Azah’s ears. The sapling that begged only to serve her in her palace amused Azah, who was not used to such flattery. She granted his request. Over time, the sapling continued to grow in Azah’s favor through his youth and enthusiasm. The other trees warned Azah that he was unlike any of them, and that they did not know from whence he came. She would not turn him away from her, however. By then, Mantim had insidiously taken a hold of her heart.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection.

~Oscar Wilde, written from prison


Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."
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Old 05-11-2005, 01:16 AM   #3
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When Azah asked the sapling from whence he came, he offered to take her to the place. She agreed to come with him, and he led her far from her faithful forest. He took her away from all that had once loved her and which she had cherished, bearing her in his timber arms. He carried her on the backs of dolphins and whales over the sea. She knew him to be different from her wood and different from all other creatures she had known, though somehow she began to sense something familiar in him as well. She began to feel that she had known him, began to sense vaguely the terrible threat that had her in its custody. She had brought her bow and arrows, and they were her only protection. As land came into sight, she beheld Eleson for the first time, the land of the gods. She knew it instinctively, and looked upon the sapling with horror, suddenly aware of his schemes. Yet he was swifter then she, snatching her weapons from her side and tossing them into the sea.

On the beach he ravaged her. She fought bravely, but like his brother, he possessed twenty arms and thus could easily pin her two. His mighty servants, elephants and lions surrounded them and escorted him with the fainted Azah back to his palace. There he plied her with marvelous enchantments and gifts, until once again he had forced her love back to him. He drew the love she had possessed for the sapling back to her, showed her his majesty and impressed her with his abilities. He had conquered her utterly, she knew whom he was, and that his foot was on her neck. At this time, she embraced him. She turned to him in love in Eleson, and Mantim slept with her frequently.

In Eleson, Azah gave birth to twin princes, Athor and Haref. She crawled to the beach and lay in the sand with her infants. Knowing that her husband very likely planned to kill them as soon as they were born, she took the precious, dying leaves that she had worn in her forest home and told them to take her children home. She laid spells on the leaves to make them as strong as steel, and to ward them from all evil eyes. Then she set her children out upon the open ocean. They vanished from the land of the gods, gone without a trace.

When Mantim found Azah and discovered that she had given birth early, he flew into a rage. He swore to kill the princes when he found them, and he sent gulls to search the seas for them. Yet the gulls could not find them, because of Azah’s protective spells.

Foiled again, Mantim knew he was unable to take his full vengeance upon Azah. He had intended to eat her children before her eyes, and then eat her. Instead, he was only able to eat Azah herself. Yet as he moved forward to take this final revenge, Azah cried out to Brell, the one who had been her god in the long past years of her youth.

In this moment Brell heard her, in spite of all that she had done against him. He sent a cloud to fill Mantim’s palace with darkness. In the blackness, Sihona appeared before Azah and offered to take her away to Elerev. Azah took the hand of the one that had severed her leg, and Sihona led her away from Eleson toward the country of Elerev. Sihona had a servant nearby who was named Armor. This servant carried Azah, until they reached a ship that Sihona had waiting. Sihona took Azah away with her onto the sea. By the time they reached land, Azah was dying.

Sihona sought the cause, and Azah explained it to her.

“Mantim still holds my heart,” she explained. “He took me and made us one. Now he masters me, and his hate follows me from afar.”

There was nothing that could be done. Even in the city of Delener, there was no power strong enough to take Azah from Mantim’s grip. As her eyes looked upon the city walls and she saw them in the distance for the first time since her youth, her life left her.

Yet the boat of leaves had not sunk in the ocean. Azah’s offspring still lived, and Sihona devoted herself to finding them.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection.

~Oscar Wilde, written from prison


Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."
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Old 05-22-2005, 08:27 AM   #4
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The main point of the story seems to provide the hero, Athor Atardii, with a formidable and worthy enough ancestor. Which fits very well with the myth-like quality of the story. It definitely reads like a myth (or at least like many of the myths I have read).

Quote:
She wore the green hide of a dragon she had slain to cover her body, though the garment did not cover her left breast.
This sentence doesn't quite ring right, IMO. Personally I'd say something in the nature of: "She wore the green hide of a dragon she had slain to cover her body, leaving only her left breast bare."

Quote:
(her hair knew better then to let itself become snagged).
Not very myth-y but I liked the sentence.

Quote:
When these people, though grateful, refused to accept her as their Guardian Goddess, she spat in the faces of their leaders, slew them when they sought to punish her, and left the survivors to find her own way again.
Shouldn't it have been 'their own way' at the end of the sentence?
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Old 06-06-2005, 01:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eärniel
The main point of the story seems to provide the hero, Athor Atardii, with a formidable and worthy enough ancestor. Which fits very well with the myth-like quality of the story. It definitely reads like a myth (or at least like many of the myths I have read).
Excellent . That's what I was aiming for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eärniel
This sentence doesn't quite ring right, IMO. Personally I'd say something in the nature of: "She wore the green hide of a dragon she had slain to cover her body, leaving only her left breast bare."
Well, that's okay. I ended up tossing that line from the story itself (a fit of modesty), so it doesn't make much difference.
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Originally Posted by Eärniel
Not very myth-y but I liked the sentence.
Good .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eärniel
Shouldn't it have been 'their own way' at the end of the sentence?
I can probably rewrite that part to make it more clear.

Thanks for responding. I love reading or watching on DVD good myths. Myths, legends and histories if done right I can really, really enjoy. For histories, I mostly enjoy the ancient ones. Ones done to times like the Roman Empire, or other eras. The Greek myths, when adapted to DVD, sometimes fulfill that very well.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection.

~Oscar Wilde, written from prison


Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."
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Old 06-11-2005, 05:34 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lief Erikson
Thanks for responding. I love reading or watching on DVD good myths. Myths, legends and histories if done right I can really, really enjoy. For histories, I mostly enjoy the ancient ones. Ones done to times like the Roman Empire, or other eras. The Greek myths, when adapted to DVD, sometimes fulfill that very well.
Myths adapted to DVD? *mind boggles* My only access to myths are books.
Greek myths tend to be my favourite because they're in large number and very accesible (read: easier to find books on). Although I now tend to become slightly bored with them and shift my attention elsewhere. I also have a great interest in Celtic myth although it is sometimes bothersome to find so many of them christianified. Scandinavian myths are very interesting too, even though they're sometimes harder to understand (and harder to find! Grrr) they possess a atmosphere-like quality that other mythologies have far less. South-american mythologies (maya, inca, aztec, ect) are very confusing since they tend to mix a lot (and I can't keep them apart ) and deal with like a gazillion sun gods, water gods ect... *decides to end ramble on mythology here before it gets out of hands*
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Last edited by Earniel : 06-11-2005 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 06-11-2005, 11:41 AM   #7
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My favorite two myth movies (I'm still deciding whether or not to count Star Wars- everyone else says it's a myth) are both about Greek legends. "Helen of Troy" and "Odysseus" have a definite myth feel to them, and I really like them. The first book of the "Earthsea" trilogy also is definitely a myth. The other two following it also have that myth feel to them, and I like them, but the first book is my favorite.

I was reading some ancient Babylonian and Sumerian myth recently. W-oh. These were written before Christianity you know, no Christian influence on them . . . It is amazing how hideous and violent of times those were . They were certainly interesting to read. They definitely had a myth feel to them. But they were full of the most hideous acts. Everyone was having sex with anyone or anything it could lay hands on. Incest was common in the tales. People killed each other with very, very great gusto. All the morals to modern culture were absent. In a tale, one person besieged his rival and starved them until they yielded, in a political rivalry (they both were bedding the same goddess, who was extremely fickle, and the besieger wanted the money of the other one to build a shrine for her so she would like him longer), and his act there was great. Another god has sexual relationships with all his grandchildren down to probably the sixth generation, and that's celebrated. The leading god repeatedly seeks to destroy all the people on Earth because "they're too noisy". Another leading god killed almost all his children because they were too noisy- then the only surviving child killed both him and his wife, and was the hero of that story. People try to take over one another's thrones for blatantly selfish reasons and kill each other for trivial insults or irritations. It's the most astoundingly non-Christian group of myths one could find.

The only thing about them that is Christian is that they do definitely contain an account that parallels the Biblical flood. It has one man loved by one of the gods trying to teach his fellows to worship only one god, in order to flatter him and so get him to stop the plagues the leading god is sending on them. Eventually that one man and his family are saved on an ark his benefactor god has him build, and he takes two of every kind of animal on the ark, when the leading god sends a flood to wipe out every living thing. So anyway, that's all obviously a Christianity parallel, and there are tales with such obvious parallels in many cultures.

The Babylonian myths were a very interesting read. Doubtless they in large part mirrored the culture they were born in. The gods they worshiped were tyrannical fiends. It really seemed like demon-worship to me. They could not have loved such gods, but must have worshipped them out of fear.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection.

~Oscar Wilde, written from prison


Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."
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Old 06-11-2005, 11:42 AM   #8
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My above post doesn't seem to be showing up in the forum. I wonder if this will?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection.

~Oscar Wilde, written from prison


Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do."
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Old 06-12-2005, 08:07 AM   #9
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Both posts seem fine to me.

Well, dangerous times leave behind dangerous myths. Most of the time I don't find Jahwe in the Old Testament such a nice god either. (You must understand that I consider the Bible and all stories of saints and miracles to be mythology, just as the Illias for example.) And incest and violence was pretty common in Egyptian and Greek mythology as well. The point is, it's very hard not to have incest in your story when your whole devine panthenon come from one or two primeval gods. The same with the human race, which in many mythologies also spring from one couple: Adam and Eve, Lif and Lifträgir, ect...

I'm not very familiar with the Middle-east mythologies. But I know the Babylonian Gilgamesh-myths have a very interesting immortality theme that is very rare among other mythologies. I don't think their gods were only worshipped in fear. Ishtjar, the babylonian goddess had both love and war as her attributes. It's IMO hard to actually fear a love goddess.

Parallels among mythologies are indeed not uncommon. It's an interesting trait of ancient storytellers who seem to have adapted some stories that they liked to fit their own religion. The christianisation of a large number of Celtic myths is a good example of that. It would also have made conversions easier because one didn't have to leave his whole cultural inheritance behind when one was converted to the new religion. Sadly, this practise also led to the loss of several original versions of stories that were only passed on in their adapted form.
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Old 06-12-2005, 04:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eärniel
Both posts seem fine to me.

Well, dangerous times leave behind dangerous myths. Most of the time I don't find Jahwe in the Old Testament such a nice god either. (You must understand that I consider the Bible and all stories of saints and miracles to be mythology, just as the Illias for example.) And incest and violence was pretty common in Egyptian and Greek mythology as well. The point is, it's very hard not to have incest in your story when your whole devine panthenon come from one or two primeval gods. The same with the human race, which in many mythologies also spring from one couple: Adam and Eve, Lif and Lifträgir, ect...
I never thought about that aspect. I don't think that was a sufficient explanation, though. At the point when this god was having sex with his offspring, there were lots of other gods already around.

I still have not heard any origin tales for the whole Babylonian pantheon. That would be interesting to read though, if it exists.

I personally am more of the opinion that Babylonians practiced incest, so their gods took on the same attributes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eärniel
I'm not very familiar with the Middle-east mythologies. But I know the Babylonian Gilgamesh-myths have a very interesting immortality theme that is very rare among other mythologies. I don't think their gods were only worshipped in fear. Ishtjar, the babylonian goddess had both love and war as her attributes. It's IMO hard to actually fear a love goddess.
If I believed that Ishtar was real, and I was not a Christian, I would fear her. I've read about Ishtar, and she was quite twisted. The two political rivals I told you about both were bedding Ishtar. She apparently had no difficulty with one of them starving the other in order to force him to support his building Ishtar's new shrine. Ishtar was extremely promiscuous. She was extremely ambitious too. She sought to take over the kingdom of the dead from her sister, solely out of selfish ambition. Gilgamesh pointed out about her that "her lovers lie about her like so many dead sparrows," or something like that. He spurned her when she demanded that he make love to her, and hence she sought to kill him. She was a vicious and highly sensual goddess. She was definitely someone you would fear though, if she were real. Someone you would want nothing to do with. She is interesting to read about though, of course .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eärniel
Parallels among mythologies are indeed not uncommon. It's an interesting trait of ancient storytellers who seem to have adapted some stories that they liked to fit their own religion. The christianisation of a large number of Celtic myths is a good example of that. It would also have made conversions easier because one didn't have to leave his whole cultural inheritance behind when one was converted to the new religion. Sadly, this practise also led to the loss of several original versions of stories that were only passed on in their adapted form.
I would enjoy reading the earlier versions too. It's sad that they're lost.
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