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#1 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
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If you were a Númenórian...
I've just re-read Akallabêth and it made me think a little.
If you were a Númenórian, what would you do and what would you think of Death and the Ban of the Valar (the ban that prohibbited the Númenóreans from sailing to Aman)? Manwë told the Númenóreans that the death of mortals was a great gift from Illúvatar. Unlike the elves the mortals were not bound to the world, they were free to leave it after death. If you were a Númenórean, would you see this as a good thing? Or would you prefer being immortal like the elves and live in Illúvatar's world forever? If you'd accepted death, Illúvatar's Gift of Men, would you try to stop the Númenóreans from reaching Aman? If you wanted to become immortal, would you yourself want to set your foot in Aman, rejecting the Ban of the Valar?
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
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#2 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
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I would have accepted death, as I have done in real life. It's no use fearing it, it won't go away (as the Númenóreans should have realized).
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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#3 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Parkersburg WV
Posts: 110
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It is the nature of men to be fascinated with death, and the desire to avoid it.
With immortality being known to exist for some, just on the edge of sight from your shores, it would be inevitable that there would be jealousy. I think that the temptation would have been too great, especially over a long lifespan. I would have given in as old age approached and attempted to discover the undying gift. I don't think, however, that I could have been persuaded to worship Morgoth. At least I hope that I would not be! Who knows? Sauron was a very powerful and persuasive being in the Second Age.
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Fingolfin: The Mighty Elven Lord who challenged Morgoth to single combat! Last edited by Balrog_of_Morgoth : 04-30-2003 at 07:11 PM. |
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#4 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
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Re: If you were a Númenórian...
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Therefore it was folly of the Númenóreans to try to break the Ban. They were of course misguided by Sauron, but Sauron's lies was founded on grounds that were already there, in the restlessness and the pride of the people of Númenóre. If I was a Númenórean, what would I do? It's impossible to say. It would be easy to be tempted by the closeness of the Undying Lands, especially when old age catch up on you. On the other hand, doesn't death often come as a relief to old people? If you have had a good life and used your days well, what could be better than to go to rest when you have become tired? Tolkien wrote a piece where he explored what would happen if a Man were allowed to live in Aman. It's in HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring. Very interesting. It says "Man would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright.'" BTW, nice title Jonathan ![]()
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 05-01-2003 at 05:55 AM. |
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#5 | ||
Fair Dinkum
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,319
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Quote:
Hmm. *thinking of what I want to say* Can't really get it across. Someone else will post and I will just agree with them. Quote:
Last edited by Linaewen : 05-02-2003 at 08:43 AM. |
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#6 |
The Elvish Temptress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 3,055
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I think I would suffer when the elves wouldn't come to numenor anymore. But I'd love to live on this island.
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What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead. |
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#7 |
Mootis per forum
Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
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I'm moving this to the Sil. forum, since Akallabêth is in that book.
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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#8 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Finland
Posts: 36
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Re: If you were a Númenórian...
Quote:
Ban of the Valar seemed to have a religious/spiritual meaning, people accepted it as a religious truth. But when Sauron came to Númenor, the people seemed to have lost its previous spirituality. Sauron taught the Númenóreans to rebel agaist the Ban, and contradict it. His influence was strong during those later days. Also, people were taught to fear and hate the Elves. So what would I have thought of the ban? It's impossible to say. Their situation was so different back then. But I can somewhat understand why they rebelled in the end. Sauron's influence is not to be underestimated there.
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"I could think of a long story about the land of Númenor." (Alboin in 'The Lost Road' by JRR Tolkien) |
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#9 |
Lady of Westernesse
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!)
Posts: 761
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I'd have accepted death. The more you run from it, the more you'll fear it and the harder it'll try to take you down.
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Yada, yada, yada |
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#10 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Re: Re: If you were a Númenórian...
Quote:
![]() Balderdash! Can't find anything directly related! ![]()
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#11 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
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I feel like I must answer my own questions.
I'm afraid of death. I'm afraid of it in real life, and I would surely be afraid of it if I was a Númenórean. If I saw a pretty good chance to become immortal, I think I would take it. I would've sailed to Aman and broken the Ban of Valar. But I could easily be persuaded to accept my destiny, to accept that I would die sooner or later. With the right arguments, I would understand that breaking the Ban of Valar is the wrong thing to do. Not only would Eru and all the Valar be dissappointed with me, but I guess the elves would be pretty upset too. And I would see an endangered relationship with the elves as a very bad thing. But death is bitter, immortality sounds sweet.
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
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#12 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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#13 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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From the Published Silmarillion:AKALLABÊTH
Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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#14 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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Mmm, a difficult question.
As me, as I am now, I would accept death. For having immortality would be a burden instead of a gift. And maybe because I know that immortality is unatainable. Why reach for something like that and waste what years I've got on it? However if I was a Númenorean, I think I would long for immortality. The fear of death was widely spread in Númenor and weighed heavily on the people there. I don't think I'd had had enough willpower to withstand it. Another important factor is that the immortal lands were within hand's reach so to speak. They were still in the world, quite tempting. The fact that it was forbidden to go there would only increase the wish to go there. Death would seem like a curse and only darkness would lie beyond. I would definately have tried with all my might to get into fleet of Ar-Pharazôn. Unless I was actually raised in Rómenna, the last stronghold of the Faithful. The atmosphere might have been different there and I might have thought like the Faithfull. I might still desire immortality but know it was not to be and be more or less content with it.
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We are not things. |
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#15 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 36
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its deep in human nature to want to avoid death.
in our world where we all die, we accept it (most of us do atleast) but i think if i was in numenor and i knew about elves and valar and maiar being immortal, i would try to achieve the same, rash as it may be
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=========== "And with a bit of luck... This mans life was ruined..." ~ Duke Raul =========== |
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#16 | |
Númenorean
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,050
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Re: If you were a Númenórian...
Quote:
I'd have to say I would remain with the Faithful, and not break the ban. After all, seeing what the Valar had done in previous events (ie the battle of wrath) would have made me realized their power. But I cannot say that with certainty; the lies and malice of Sauron was deep in the Numenoreans.
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Why can we not be sober.. |
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#17 |
Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: college
Posts: 861
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If I were a Numenorean I would have probably become discontent with my way of life after Sauron's capture. I just want a place that is quiet and peaceful and I'd like to think that I'd notice the upheaval that Sauron was causing and want to steer clear of BOTH sides. I probably would have sailed off to seek Gil-Galad or Cirdan and ask to remain with them. Nothing really spectacular, and avoiding the debate of death as a gift or as a punishment at all costs.
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
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#18 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
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Quote:
If I could give you what my people possess I would give it freely, if not hesitantly. You do not know the weariness of long life, you have not experienced it for thousands of years and the burden and grief of memory past. Yet it remains your hearts desire. I envy you and your short days, as you envy the Elves and their long lives. |
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#19 |
Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: college
Posts: 861
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No fair Ruinel! You're supposed to answer like a Numenorian. At least pretend that you're mortal for now.
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
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#20 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
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Quote:
ahem... "I am afraid of death. I want the gift of immortality that was given to the Elves. It isn't fair and I am envious of them. Why should they be blessed by Ilúvatar and not us? I would give all I had for it. Even travel to Aman and demand it from Manwë himself. And are we not also the Children of Ilúvatar? Does he not love us as much? We have a right to it as much as the Elves." how was that? (I hope I didn't offend any of the Atani. ![]() |
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