01-13-2006, 10:54 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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Star Wars Philosophy
This is a thread for discussion of any aspects of Star Wars philosophy.
Now, I will respond to couple points Rohirrim TR was making in the Theology thread in General Messages. When Obi-Wan said, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes," 1) When Obi-Wan said this, he was responding to Anakin's "you're either with me or against me." He was pretty much saying, "there's always an exception to a rule," or, "there's a lot of gray area," objecting to fanaticism that draws up barriers without attempting to see the other side. He wasn't saying "there's no absolute good," or, "there's no absolute truth." Those weren't what he was talking about at all. In context, he was referring to refusal to see the other side in an argument. 2) Even if he were talking about any form of absolute, this would be somewhat limited to his own world. The Force may not be wholly the same as a perfect, flawless Christian-Judeo God. Perhaps in the Star Wars universe, there aren't any absolutes? I don't know . . . though I don't care for the idea at all.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
01-13-2006, 11:12 PM | #2 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
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1) thats typical obi-wan, he's always saying things like "it was true from a certain point of view", and kinda waffles sometimes, but "actions speak louder than words" so characteristically Jedi behave as though they believe in absolutes of good and evil, and honor and chivalry, (they are knights after all). where as the sith behave as if good and evil were the same remeber palps "from another(the sith) point of view the jedi are evil" using obi-wans own words against him causing anakins fall. in the whole absolute debate the jedi are a bit muddlled i.e. saying one thing, behaving differently, these inconsistencies may have led to anakin's fall.
2)obviously the force isn't God, think about it: pure energy that can only be accessed by some, very dissimilar to my view of God. it does bring up the question of where do the jedi get their values? I don't see how the force would really contribute to that.
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01-13-2006, 11:38 PM | #3 | |
Elf Lord
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So this is kind of a "godly" perspective. An ultimate good with what could be termed "fallen angels" throwing things out of balance.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-14-2006, 12:16 AM | #4 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
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whoa time warp, it says you posted that last post yesterday, freaky.
well those are some good points, and it would provide an answer to why the jedi believe in knightly standards. as to if there are absolutes in the SW universe it seems an obvious yes to me, you can't really have a battle between good and evil without having some semblance of absolutes, at the very least you could say that "freedom good, tyranny bad" could be the absolute that comes through most strongly, although there are others there as well.
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01-14-2006, 07:28 AM | #5 | |
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So do all who see such times, but that is not for us to decide, all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us Gandalf And what happened to the rest of your party, killed, eaten, gone home? Beorn, The Hobbit Dark and difficult Times lie ahead Harry, soon we must all face a choice, a choice between what is right and what is easy! Dumbledore Neo Are you listening to Me? Or are you too busy looking at the Woman in the Red Dress? Morpheus, The Matrix |
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01-14-2006, 11:49 AM | #6 |
Elf Lord
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Do you guys know how to spot Roman Catholics and Anglicans at a Star Wars flick?
It's easy. Whenever anyone says, "The force be with you," they are the folks who say, . . . . . . . . . . "And also with you!"
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-14-2006, 12:07 PM | #7 | ||
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Then, we can also know that eliminating the Dark Side users brings the Force back into balance (According to Mace Windu in Episode 3). This assumes that good is the norm for the Force, something that also implied in the fact that the "light side" of the Force is never mentioned. It is assumed that the Force is naturally light, and any darkness is an aberration and an imbalance. Quote:
So we have the Force being thrown out of balance by evil, which means the normal state of the Force is good, and we also have it personal, intelligent and eager to communicate. This begins to look very much like a pure, holy, personal and intelligent deity. The Dark Side of the Force is abuse of something good, rather than a natural state of things. I think . This is the only conclusion I can draw that makes sense, in view of the evidence, at this time.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-14-2006 at 07:21 PM. |
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01-14-2006, 06:39 PM | #8 | |
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01-14-2006, 07:20 PM | #9 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-16-2006, 12:01 PM | #10 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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there is no "one-god" religion in star wars... the jedi more-closely resemble a buddhist-type culture than a western christian culture... salvation and perfection coming from within, not from without
this quote from yoda reflects this more personal journey: Quote:
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01-16-2006, 01:00 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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Actually, BJ, I am glad you can distinguish between Star Wars stuff and reality. I was beginning to wonder there for a while. But the distinction is correct. In Western and Eastern Christian traditions, salvation is from outside of humanity which is incapable of recovering what it lost in the fall, and therefore needs a Saviour. The Jedi are their own saviours. But, do Buddhists actually believe in any sort of personal god? Do the Jedi? The Force in SW seems much more like the Cosmic Energy capable of direction by those with minds in any direction since it apparently does not have one.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-16-2006, 01:19 PM | #12 | |||
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01-16-2006, 03:13 PM | #13 | |||
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Thanks for posting that interview, brownjenkins. I read the whole thing and enjoyed it a great deal, and it clarified for me some what George Lucas was trying to do. I very much appreciate and approve of his mission to get young people to question whether or not there is a God, and to seek the answer. That is a very positive goal, in my opinion. I disagree with George Lucas' own liberal theology, but he doesn't try to bring his own belief out in the movies, but rather seeks to encourage others to some belief. So I'm happy.
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There is definitely a one-god religion apparent in Star Wars. Evil throws the Force out of balance, which shows that it is by nature good, and furthermore it has its own will, which makes it a good, personal God. There are differences, but there also are close similarities. The Force is not neutral. I realize that there definitely is some Buddhism, Hinduism, and even pantheism and such in Star Wars as well. It's a bit of a mixture of everything. There also are some elements of the monotheist religions, as was mentioned in that interview. The nature of God seems to be largely paralleled with the monotheist religions, though the Jedi's personal journey seems to be more Buddhist.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-16-2006, 03:57 PM | #14 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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01-16-2006, 05:02 PM | #15 | ||
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However, I don't really think he was saying life actually created the Force. More likely, he was saying it emanates from life in a special way, like what Yoda said on Dagobah, "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!" So I think George Lucas had in mind that the Force would emanate particularly strongly from lifeforms, but not necessarily exist only because of life forms. The interpretation that the Force only exists because of other life forms doesn't jive with the other stated function of the Force regarding the galaxy. Furthermore, I would add that your interpretation doesn't make sense because of a quote from Qui-Gon-Jin in Episode 1. He said, "Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force." That directly implies that the Force would have existed, whether we did or not. It's saying that midi-chlorians are responsible for both life and knowledge of the Force, but it implies that the Force would have been there anyway. After all, the mid-chlorians are responsible for bringing people knowledge of the Force, rather than the Force itself.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-16-2006 at 05:05 PM. |
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01-16-2006, 05:12 PM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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01-16-2006, 05:20 PM | #17 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-16-2006, 06:12 PM | #18 | ||
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And no, I'm afraid reading about the prokaryotes and eukaryotes without knowing how they were supposed to relate to Star Wars wasn't something I chose to pursue.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-16-2006, 06:32 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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Lief,
I have seen all the SW (some more than once, but long ago) but I'm not sure of your reference. Please enlighten me.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-16-2006, 06:39 PM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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Qui-Gon-Jin talking with young Anakin in Episode 1, when they're about to fly back to Naboo. In that conversation, Qui-Gon said that midi-chlorians make known to people the will of the Force, and that in time, Anakin would hear them speaking to him. From that conversation it became clear that the Force is not neutral but has a will.
Also, it is clear that the Force is not neutral from the fact that destroying users of the Dark Side brings the Force into balance. This implies that the natural state of the Force is good, rather than evil. This also shows it is not neutral. So we have that the Force is a good, personal, intelligent God with a will of its own.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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