Gods, elves, demons and magic

afro-elf · 12-23-2001, 06:49 AM

there is a debate about the balrogs concerning their power and number

be they 7, 12, or many

the SIL calls them DEMONS they are MAIAR
and the slaying of one no matter their number is a major feat

on some site that i can no longer find they made a comparision using the christian/judaedic/islamic order of beings

ERU= the one god of the aforementioned beliefs
VALAR= the greater gods of myths

MAIAR = seem to vary in power some seem to rival the VALAR like eonwe/melian/sauron while others seem to be quite minor i would say the greatest of them are lesser gods and the most minor of them just spirits

the greatest of the calaquendi would seem to be arch angels and
the other elves various angels down the line don't recall the order of angles seriphum to chereb(?)

also i'm reading the SIL now and say that elves used magics, wizardary, arts ( an archaic word for magic =craft also)

but as posted elsewhere it could only be a matter of semantics
any thoughts on these ideas

afro-elf · 12-23-2001, 11:42 AM

there is something in the SIL say that the Noldor soon even passed there teachers in many things

Gimly · 01-04-2002, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
MAIAR = seem to vary in power some seem to rival the VALAR like eonwe/melian/sauron while others seem to be quite minor i would say the greatest of them are lesser gods and the most minor of them just spirits

If making an greek mythology analogy they could be the half-gods - children of the gods with the Mortals, like the most famous Hercules (Heracles). But they weren't their children, just a power comparement.

Ñólendil · 01-04-2002, 06:04 PM

I think the Ainur are easier to compare to figures 'in what might be called Christian mythology' as Tolkien said. He said that the Valar are not really gods, but angelic gods, and the Maiar are the angels (the Istari, he said, are comparable to guardian angels). Obviously Melkor/Morgoth takes the role of Lucifer/Satan and Mikael's shoes are filled by Manwe and Tulkas.

For example Tulkas wrestles with Morgoth and puts the chain of Angainor on him and brings him back to Valinor, where he was imprisoned for three Ages of the Valar. An Age of the Valar consisted of 100 (Valian) years, which was equal to 1,000 years of the Sun. Three Ages of the Valar is thus equal to 3,000 years, the amount of time (I believe) the Dragon in the Revelation of John is supposed to be imprisoned under the earth, via the might of Mikael. Mikael if I remember aright is supposed to be God's 'right-hand-man' so to speak, the chief of the Seraphim and Arch-angels, and this is the role Manwe has as the chief weapon against Melkor in the Second Theme of Ilúvatar.

12-23-2001, 06:49 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Gods, elves, demons and magic there is a debate about the balrogs concerning their power and number be they 7, 12, or many the SIL calls them DEMONS they are MAIAR and the slaying of one no matter their number is a major feat on some site that i can no longer find they made a comparision using the christian/judaedic/islamic order of beings ERU= the one god of the aforementioned beliefs VALAR= the greater gods of myths MAIAR = seem to vary in power some seem to rival the VALAR like eonwe/melian/sauron while others seem to be quite minor i would say the greatest of them are lesser gods and the most minor of them just spirits the greatest of the calaquendi would seem to be arch angels and the other elves various angels down the line don't recall the order of angles seriphum to chereb(?) also i'm reading the SIL now and say that elves used magics, wizardary, arts ( an archaic word for magic =craft also) but as posted elsewhere it could only be a matter of semantics any thoughts on these ideas __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 12-23-2001 at 06:54 AM.

12-23-2001, 11:42 AM	#2
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	there is something in the SIL say that the Noldor soon even passed there teachers in many things __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-04-2002, 06:04 PM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I think the Ainur are easier to compare to figures 'in what might be called Christian mythology' as Tolkien said. He said that the Valar are not really gods, but angelic gods, and the Maiar are the angels (the Istari, he said, are comparable to guardian angels). Obviously Melkor/Morgoth takes the role of Lucifer/Satan and Mikael's shoes are filled by Manwe and Tulkas. For example Tulkas wrestles with Morgoth and puts the chain of Angainor on him and brings him back to Valinor, where he was imprisoned for three Ages of the Valar. An Age of the Valar consisted of 100 (Valian) years, which was equal to 1,000 years of the Sun. Three Ages of the Valar is thus equal to 3,000 years, the amount of time (I believe) the Dragon in the Revelation of John is supposed to be imprisoned under the earth, via the might of Mikael. Mikael if I remember aright is supposed to be God's 'right-hand-man' so to speak, the chief of the Seraphim and Arch-angels, and this is the role Manwe has as the chief weapon against Melkor in the Second Theme of Ilúvatar. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan