02-28-2005, 08:57 PM | #1 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
The fate of Tuor
I couldn't find an appropriate thread for this (sorry if there is one),
and so, I just wanted to know, why/how was Tuor counted among the elves? i don't quite understand how he could be . . . . . . . |
02-28-2005, 11:33 PM | #2 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
As I read it, on and between the lines, He and Idril and their ship diappeared on the journey, and the fanciful fate sung of him was just wishful thinking and creative writing by song-makers.
"Therfore he built a great ship, and he named it Earrame, which is Sea-wing; and with idril Celebrindal he set sail into the suset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tour alone of mortal men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined to the Noldor, whom he loved, and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men." Note the last sentence is not even presented as fact or history, but just something that some sang much later. Maker Tour elven was outside the power of the the Valar, who were (only later at that) given authority to judge and make whole among the mixed evlen/human, but were expressly forbidden to deprive an (all) human the gift to man. Earendils voyage which reach the west had great impact, yet we hear nothing of Tour and Idril having reached there, and they did not have a silmaril to seek through the eachanted defenses of the twilight Ilses that had stopped every other voyage. I say they were lost like all other voyages prior to Earendil's, and they Tuor's spirit went the way of humans, and Idrils the way of Elves, and that they are separate until at least the ending of the world, if not forever. And that this obvious fate was just too sad for later romantic poets and Barbs to bear, as it had been borne by the earlier bard who more directly felt the multiple grat tradgedies of the War of the Jewels and Morgoth's reign in ME.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 02-28-2005 at 11:37 PM. |
03-01-2005, 08:09 AM | #3 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
This is a hard question, but I must say that I tend to agree with Lefty in this, even though I think it would be great if Tuor and Idril was allowed to share the same fate regarding to death. Eru is the only one who could have changed Tuor's fate, and that is a thing I think he would not do, because it would be taking away a gift. Nowhere else is it recorded that one of Men is reckoned among the Elves.
There is another version of the end of Tuor in Middle-Earth, where his longing for the sea becomes so strong that he sails away on his own, leaving Idril behind. A sad version, and hard to believe in, knowing how much Tuor loved Idril.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
03-03-2005, 11:57 AM | #4 | |||
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 54
|
In my opinion, Tolkien confirms the ‘immortality’ of Tuor with these passages in Letters no. 153 (dated 1954):
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Maerbenn : 04-12-2005 at 11:31 AM. |
|||
03-03-2005, 07:40 PM | #5 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Staments followed 'It is supposed" and "it must be assumed" do not carry much weight with an old lawyer like me. Supposition tend to fall when challenged with facts.
Luthien present a very different case that Tour, being 1/2 non elvish, and having the gift to man added to her, not taken away.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 03-03-2005 at 07:44 PM. |
03-03-2005, 09:49 PM | #6 |
Honourary Elitist Inklette
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: between the mountains and the sea
Posts: 704
|
I would like to belive that Tuor was able to share the fate of the firstborn. I have been under the impression that he was granted that exception because of his service to Ulmo, but his death is much more plausible.
Now I really must continue reading HoME. |
03-13-2005, 07:32 AM | #7 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
The Tower of Pearl was said to have a Sleeper inside (who would not wake before the end of time but here I'm really stretching my memory). Tolkien wrote in a side note somewhere that the Sleeper might have been Idril (IIRC). Which might explain what happened to Idril after she sailed to the West but which she never seemed to have reached. However there's no mention of Tuor, whether he is elsewhere, dead or alive, or in there, also sleeping.
__________________
We are not things. |
|
03-13-2005, 04:25 PM | #8 |
Sapling
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10
|
I believe that Tolkien wanted Tuor to be sort of the Mannish counterpart of Lúthien. Instead of Idril receiving mortality, Tuor receives immortality. There are signs of Tuor's 'elvishness' during his sojourn in Gondolin; he acted and looked like an Elf. Because of this and Maerbenn's quotes, I would go for Tuor receiving an immortal fate.
Last edited by Aphanuzîr : 03-13-2005 at 05:26 PM. |
03-14-2005, 03:55 PM | #9 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Good points, everyone. Personally, I think the story Arty referenced was a vicious rumor started by Maeglin's relatives and the true story is that he was the mannish counterpart of Luthien. This angle seems to be more supported by Tolkien's writings, esp. those quoted by Maerbenn.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-17-2005, 05:18 PM | #10 | |
Honourary Elitist Inklette
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: between the mountains and the sea
Posts: 704
|
Quote:
Edit: Post #666 Evil! Last edited by Embladyne : 03-17-2005 at 05:26 PM. |
|
03-18-2005, 02:52 AM | #11 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
I think the reason who so many people would like Tuor to share the fate of the Elves is that they fail to see that death is a gift from Eru to Men.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
03-18-2005, 05:48 AM | #12 | |
Sapling
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10
|
Artanis: Immortality is also a gift from Eru to the Elves. I quote Maerbenn's quote from Letter #144 again:
Quote:
|
|
03-18-2005, 06:28 AM | #13 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Yes AphanuzÃ*r, immortality was a gift tothe Elves, but I was addressing the failure in our own culture to view death as a gift. Therefore we assume that death is something grievous also in Middle-Earth.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
03-18-2005, 05:54 PM | #14 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
Romantic, yeah...
__________________
We are not things. |
|
03-18-2005, 07:33 PM | #15 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
I agree - I don't want to see Tuor and Idril separated. I don't care if Tuor goes Elvish or Idril goes mannish, but I don't want to see them separated And Tuor leaving Idril is DEFINITELY out of character for him!!
(WAIT - what am I saying? If Tuor dumps that pampered princess, I can have him all for my own!!!! Mwahahahaha! *goes to the "Men of the Sil" thread posthaste, elbowing Eärniel out of the way )
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-18-2005 at 07:35 PM. |
03-19-2005, 02:39 PM | #16 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
__________________
We are not things. |
|
03-20-2005, 01:25 AM | #17 |
founder of the color blue
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
|
Tuor is mine, and always will be.
__________________
Well, there it is. |
03-22-2005, 06:35 AM | #18 |
Sapling
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2
|
Hi everyone. I'm new to these boards posting but have watched your interplay for a while.Nice boards you have here.
I would like to question lefty on the statement that the Valar were given authority to judge and make whole among the mixed Elven/Human,but were expressly forbidden to deprive an (all) human the gift to Man. I am a bit lost here. Can you explain this a bit better lefty. Possible references. |
04-04-2005, 02:32 AM | #19 |
Sapling
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2
|
Two weeks roughly now that I waited for an answer. No problem. Real world gets in the way of things.
I see no way that anyone cannot believe that Tuor was sundered. Makes sense to me. He married an Elf---would Eru deny him the afterlife with the one that he loved? Did not Luthien come back from Elf to be Man to stay with Beren? Was not Arwen given the choice of Mortal form to lay with Aragorn? Was it not that the Peredthil were split and sundered to be re-united with Arwen and Aragorn? |
04-05-2005, 12:29 AM | #20 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
|
I know this isn't a direct answer, merely an observation of mine, but it seems that the elves who end up entertwined with men always get the better deal...in my opinion the gift of Men is greater than the Elves' gift....Men went outside the workld wereas Elves were bound to it and not sure of there fate when ARda ended...so Luthien gets to be with Beren "outside of Arda", and ARwen gets to be with Aragorn "outside of Arda"...but with Tuor, it's a mystery I suppose
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Men free from fate? | CAB | Middle Earth | 9 | 05-27-2008 09:48 PM |
Tolkien Lover Anonymous 3, The Sil(ly)marillion | Willow Oran | RPG Forum | 583 | 11-27-2005 10:06 PM |
*Discussion Thread* Of Nazgûl-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign (Calling all Nazgûl II) | Grey_Wolf | RPG Forum | 1000 | 10-04-2005 05:26 AM |
Whose fate would you change? | Kellquenti | The Silmarillion | 42 | 01-22-2005 07:59 PM |
Character analysis: Beren, Tuor, Aragorn | Beren3000 | Middle Earth | 25 | 09-29-2004 03:37 PM |