elves and telepathy

afro-elf · 11-20-2001, 10:00 AM

in the complete guide to ME it says that the eldar could speak mind to mind

can someone verify this

Kirinki54 · 11-20-2001, 11:28 AM

Not really. I think there might be something in HoME on the subject.

What I do know there is a passage in LotR 'Many Partings' where it seems Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf spend the nights around the campfire communicating without words and with thoughts only.

Ñólendil · 11-20-2001, 05:55 PM

That would be where Robert Foster got it then, his book was published before any of the HoMe books were.

Comic Book Guy · 11-29-2001, 08:01 PM

Quote:

'You have talked long in your sleep, Frodo,' said Gandalf gently, 'and it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory. Do not worry!

Sneaky and very subtle Gandalf.

afro-elf · 11-30-2001, 01:20 AM

gandalf is not an elf

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-30-2001, 11:16 AM

Speaking of Robert Foster, I understand that a new guide is to be published soon. Does anyone know more about this? Is it to include the HoMe?

afro-elf · 11-30-2001, 04:50 PM

the last time i checked with amazon and that was awhile ago

the only it said was it was due out on dec 4th

i'll check in a bit and see what it says now

Comic Book Guy · 11-30-2001, 04:57 PM

Quote:

gandalf is not an elf

Yes but the Power of Narya helped him do this.

afro-elf · 11-30-2001, 05:32 PM

CMG

i'm not sure i follow your point

my original question on the post was do thr eldar have telepathy

not if if their creations did

can you clarify

SGH

i check amazon again just now and it SEEMS to be the very same book

Wayfarer · 11-30-2001, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
Yes but the Power of Narya helped him do this.

No. Gandalf's natural talent (as Olorin) was that of dreams and visions. Narya had the power of inspiration. (it had a lot to do with awakening the 'heroic' nature in Bilbo and frodo)

Elanor Gamgee · 11-30-2001, 05:49 PM

Tolkien discussed Elven telepathy (and telepathy in general) rather thoroughly in an essay called Osanwe-kenta ("Discussion of the communication of thought" in plain old English

) published in Vinyar Tengwar #39, July 1998. I believe that Christopher Tolkien mentions this essay in his notes in HoME XI (should be notes to Quendi and Eldar but I can as well be mistaken); mind-reading is also discussed in the Myths Transformed, HoME X. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of Osanwe (though I'd love to) but basically the arguments boil down to the following:
- All the Incarnates (Men, Elves and self-incarnated Ainur) posess the ability to communicate in thought and to "read minds". This ability varies between the races (Ainur are the most capable, Men the least) and individually within a race (e.g. telepathic abilities of Finrod, an Elf, were comparable to lesser Maiar; but Finrod was exceptional).
- Not even with the most powerful Ainur, the Valar, the mind-reading ability is complete, i.e. it's impossible to actually perceive someone's mind totally (to know what the person is thinking). Besides, if a person doesn't want to reveal his/her thoughts, he/she cannot be forced to do so. To dominate the others' will by fear or force of any kind in order to make them speak up is wicked; among the Valar Morgoth alone did such things.
- Certain things would severely decrease telepathic abilities, and some other things would increase them. The most important decreasing factor is the existence of a body; that's why Men and Elves, who are permanently incarnate have lesser abilities than Ainur, who are spirits by their nature. Another major factor is language, because comminicating through words is much quicker and more precise than communicating in thought. Among facilitating factors are kinship/friendship (persons having affection for each other have it easier to communicate in thought); urgency; power of command (e.g. a commander trying to get in touch with the army has bigger chances to get through).

Kirinki54 · 12-02-2001, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Tolkien discussed Elven telepathy (and telepathy in general) rather thoroughly in an essay called Osanwe-kenta ("Discussion of the communication of thought" in plain old English ) published in Vinyar Tengwar #39, July 1998.

Can it be accessed on the web?

Elanor Gamgee · 12-03-2001, 12:06 PM

I failed to find it, but it looks like the issue can be ordered from the Vinyar Tengwar's website. BTW, Sister Golden Hair is interested in this essay, too. I wonder if we could join our efforts somehow?

P.S. I like your signature; it comes from the same source as mine

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-03-2001, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf

SGH

i check amazon again just now and it SEEMS to be the very same book

Bummer!! Thanks though for checking.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-03-2001, 12:21 PM

QUOTE:and individually within a race (e.g. telepathic abilities of Finrod, an Elf, were comparable to lesser Maiar; but Finrod was exceptional).

Btw, Elanor, where did you find that small peice of Osanwe-kenta tht you sent me?

Elanor Gamgee · 12-03-2001, 12:35 PM

Good question, Sister; I wish I could remember! I was browsing something, which might be a telepathy thread on Xenite.org.

Kirinki54 · 12-03-2001, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
I failed to find it, but it looks like the issue can be ordered from the Vinyar Tengwar's website. BTW, Sister Golden Hair is interested in this essay, too. I wonder if we could join our efforts somehow?

P.S. I like your signature; it comes from the same source as mine

Well thank you! I did not really consider that it was Legolas speaking... but of course you did!

So how can that essay be found as a joint venture? We can give it a try with Sister Golden Hair. Suggestions?

Elanor Gamgee · 12-03-2001, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54

Well thank you! I did not really consider that it was Legolas speaking... but of course you did!

Well, I'm not the only one who's obsessed here, but I seem to be the only one obsessed by this particular chap

Quote:

So how can that essay be found as a joint venture? We can give it a try with Sister Golden Hair. Suggestions?

None so far but let me sleep on it

11-20-2001, 10:00 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	elves and telepathy in the complete guide to ME it says that the eldar could speak mind to mind can someone verify this __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-30-2001, 01:20 AM	#5
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	gandalf is not an elf __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-30-2001, 04:50 PM	#7
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	the last time i checked with amazon and that was awhile ago the only it said was it was due out on dec 4th i'll check in a bit and see what it says now __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-30-2001, 05:32 PM	#9
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	CMG i'm not sure i follow your point my original question on the post was do thr eldar have telepathy not if if their creations did can you clarify SGH i check amazon again just now and it SEEMS to be the very same book __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-30-2001, 05:49 PM	#11
Elanor Gamgee Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Shire Posts: 49	Tolkien discussed Elven telepathy (and telepathy in general) rather thoroughly in an essay called Osanwe-kenta ("Discussion of the communication of thought" in plain old English ) published in Vinyar Tengwar #39, July 1998. I believe that Christopher Tolkien mentions this essay in his notes in HoME XI (should be notes to Quendi and Eldar but I can as well be mistaken); mind-reading is also discussed in the Myths Transformed, HoME X. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of Osanwe (though I'd love to) but basically the arguments boil down to the following: - All the Incarnates (Men, Elves and self-incarnated Ainur) posess the ability to communicate in thought and to "read minds". This ability varies between the races (Ainur are the most capable, Men the least) and individually within a race (e.g. telepathic abilities of Finrod, an Elf, were comparable to lesser Maiar; but Finrod was exceptional). - Not even with the most powerful Ainur, the Valar, the mind-reading ability is complete, i.e. it's impossible to actually perceive someone's mind totally (to know what the person is thinking). Besides, if a person doesn't want to reveal his/her thoughts, he/she cannot be forced to do so. To dominate the others' will by fear or force of any kind in order to make them speak up is wicked; among the Valar Morgoth alone did such things. - Certain things would severely decrease telepathic abilities, and some other things would increase them. The most important decreasing factor is the existence of a body; that's why Men and Elves, who are permanently incarnate have lesser abilities than Ainur, who are spirits by their nature. Another major factor is language, because comminicating through words is much quicker and more precise than communicating in thought. Among facilitating factors are kinship/friendship (persons having affection for each other have it easier to communicate in thought); urgency; power of command (e.g. a commander trying to get in touch with the army has bigger chances to get through). __________________ Above all shadows rides the Sun And stars forever dwell; I will not say the day is done, Nor bid the stars farewell.

11-20-2001, 11:28 AM	#2
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	Not really. I think there might be something in HoME on the subject. What I do know there is a passage in LotR 'Many Partings' where it seems Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf spend the nights around the campfire communicating without words and with thoughts only.

11-20-2001, 05:55 PM	#3
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	That would be where Robert Foster got it then, his book was published before any of the HoMe books were. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-30-2001, 11:16 AM	#6
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Speaking of Robert Foster, I understand that a new guide is to be published soon. Does anyone know more about this? Is it to include the HoMe?

12-03-2001, 12:06 PM	#13
Elanor Gamgee Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Shire Posts: 49	I failed to find it, but it looks like the issue can be ordered from the Vinyar Tengwar's website. BTW, Sister Golden Hair is interested in this essay, too. I wonder if we could join our efforts somehow? P.S. I like your signature; it comes from the same source as mine __________________ Above all shadows rides the Sun And stars forever dwell; I will not say the day is done, Nor bid the stars farewell. Last edited by Elanor Gamgee : 12-03-2001 at 12:08 PM.

12-03-2001, 12:21 PM	#15
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	QUOTE:and individually within a race (e.g. telepathic abilities of Finrod, an Elf, were comparable to lesser Maiar; but Finrod was exceptional). Btw, Elanor, where did you find that small peice of Osanwe-kenta tht you sent me?

12-03-2001, 12:35 PM	#16
Elanor Gamgee Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Shire Posts: 49	Good question, Sister; I wish I could remember! I was browsing something, which might be a telepathy thread on Xenite.org. __________________ Above all shadows rides the Sun And stars forever dwell; I will not say the day is done, Nor bid the stars farewell.