Dwarves and fire

[UnStashable]

Im kinda curious about how in the 5th battle the Silmarillion goes into great detail about how the dwarves were able to withstand heat and fire, and beat off glaurung and, im guessing, the other dragons and fell beasts that were with him. Yet a Single Balrog Overthrows Khazad-dum. Often said to be the most powerful dwarf mansion the world had seen. How come they did so well againts fire breathing dragons and so poorly againts a fire wielding demon.

[Ñólendil]

n/t [what do you want, I'm dead!]

[UnStashable]

I can repost them in 2 differnt paragraphs if that will help.

[anduin]

LOL!!!

[olorin7]

it was never said that the balrog over threw moria by himself. don't forget that there were battles between orcs and dwarves there before the dwarven kingdom fell. i'm sure that the balrog had help from the trools and orcs and maybe even the things far below that even sauron does not know about

[Sister Golden Hair]

Perhaps their ability to withstand heat and fire in the First Age had something to do with their armor. They did make the Dragon Helm which Turin wore against Glaurung. Also, they were fighting in the field, and in an expected battle as opposed to a surprise atrtack.

[Ñólendil]

[careless mode=]Or perhaps they themselves were Balrogs! Thus, Balrogs did not have wings. Though it is also possible that Tolkien could not decide about this, and left the matter vague. Who knows, maybe the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains had wings!

[/careless mode]

[Kirinki54]

The relation of Dwarves and fire is interesting. Being made by Aule, and being miners and smiths, of course they were very hardy to fire and used in handling it. (But of course, when wielded by a Balrog in the tunnels of Moria, fire must have been a rather stressing element!)

But what is this thing with death and fire? After the battle at Azanulbizar the Dwarves had to lay their dead on pyres (instead of burying them in stone) and this was very traumatic. Could have something to do with the fate of Dwarves which I think is not known?

[Ñólendil]

Good analyses! Perhaps, perhaps. The Peoples of Middle-earth (Vol. XII of HoMe) reveals that a special grace given to Dwarves was that their Fathers would return among them. After death they lie in the tombs of their own bodies (any hurts being done to them are healed), and their spirits sleep. When a King in his direct descent dies without an heir, the Father awakens and takes up the Kingship again. Maybe something similar happened to normal Dwarves, though in slightly different ways and at different times. If Dúrin VI is the 'same' as Dúrin the Deathless (he is), then perhaps Thorin II was the 'same' as Thorin I*. So the Dwarves were preserved in tombs so that they may return again, but burning them means that they could not. The problem with this that I can see is that the Fathers did not need actual tombs of stone, but had their own bodies. But this can be avoided and explained: the hurts to the Fathers' bodies were healed and they needed no tombs of stone, while the other Dwarves needed protection.

Thanks for setting off my train of thought!

*This would mean that Thorin III Stonehelm, son of Dáin II, King Under The Mountain, was actually Thorin Oakenshield returned.

[easterlinge]

It makes me wonder..... if Glorfindel and Gandalf have their powers enhanced returning from death, do the Dwarf-kings have their abilities altered ?

What about Dwarves who get decapitated in battle?

This topic suddenly reminds me of "Highlander".....

[Ñólendil]

As for the Dwarf-Fathers, it is made clear that the hurts their bodies sustained were healed. I assume it would be quite a miraculous sight -- to witness the 'tomb making' (as one might call it) of a Durin after he was decapitated, as you put it.

But I don't think the examples of Glorfindel and Gandalf should go for Dwarves. Glorfindel would not have been enhanced in power at all from his former life had he gone first to Middle-earth. It was his time spent in Aman again, as he became like the Amanyar that never left that raised his power and nobility. Gandalf needed to become the White, because the cause of his Order had failed; the opposition had become too great. He was elevated by the One.

[Comic Book Guy]

He was elevated by the One

Do you mean Eru Illuvatar? Where does it say this?

[Ñólendil]

I do. 'Eru' is rendered 'the One' in English. Tolkien talks about in one of his letters.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Gandalf needed to become the White, because the cause of his Order had failed; the opposition had become too great. He was elevated by the One.

That is interesting. Is there anything to indicate that Eru was involved in the original scheme to send the Istari as a less conspicuous and moderate assistance to ME? I thought the Valar themselves were behind that strategy (so to speak; it could not have been done against Eru´s will)?

But, apparently, when the scheme failed, the Valar was overruled or at least not allowed/capable of handling the situation on their own. And the One interfered directly which did not happen very often.

Perhaps he got impatient?

[Ñólendil]

I originally thought (when I knew of such things) that Gandalf's spirit had returned to Valinor as well, but that's not what happened. From Letter # 156:

Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. .... The 'wizards' were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plany anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that momemnt he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was my name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. ....

He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.

[Kirinki54]

Thanks for the Letter quote, Inoldonil. Interesting. I really must get down to read that book!

I do not intend to argue with the good Prof. but still, did Gandalf really sacrifice himself purposely?
What I mean is, what choice did he have but facing the Balrog given the situation? He was probably the only one of the Company to make a difference there and then.
And he was clever, naturally. Instead of attacking the Balrog, he struck the bridge and made it collapse. It was only by pure chance that the Balrog managed to snare him with the tip of his whip.
If that had not happened, much would have been different. So I for one would blame Gandalf´s fate on higher powers (possibly Eru) than on any wish from Gandalf to make a sacrifice of himself.

[afro-elf]

i thought the balrog lashed his whip around gandalf's legs

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by afro-elf
i thought the balrog lashed his whip around gandalf's legs

Well, that´s what I meant. Sorry if I was unclear.

And when I read that passage, I get a feeling that Gandalf was just very unlucky that the Balrog caught him in his own fall.

But then again much had been different otherwise, so voluntary or not, Gandalf´s fate was a sacrifice to bring about victory in the end.

No?

[Ñólendil]

Search me. I'm rather confused about it myself.