03-01-2001, 11:45 AM | #1 |
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Seven Stars
"Seven Starsand Seven Stones and one White Tree"
We know about Seven stones (palantiri), and the White Tree is obvious enough. But what are the Seven Stars? Is it Menelvagor/Orion? |
03-02-2001, 05:39 AM | #2 |
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Re: Seven Stars
It has many names I believe, but a few of them are the Sickle of the Valar (Valacirya), The Burning Briar and Durin's Crown. I don't think it is Menelvagor.
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03-02-2001, 09:16 AM | #3 |
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Re: Seven Stars
Menelvagor corresponds to Orion in our skies. (ANd if you count only the brightest stars of Orion's body and belt, there are indeed seven.)
What does Valacirya correspond to? The Big Dipper? Does it have seven? I'll have to count next time I look. Or maybe the Seven Stars are the Pleiades or "the Seven Sisters". Can't help wondering if the flag of the House of Elendil was originally supposed to contain a constellation. |
03-02-2001, 07:35 PM | #4 |
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Re: Seven Stars
I believe the Sickle does correspond to the Big Dipper. The location certainly fits.
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03-02-2001, 10:33 PM | #5 |
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Re: Seven Stars
The Sickle is the Ursa Major, it's also called Otselen.
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03-06-2001, 01:38 AM | #6 |
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Re: Seven Stars
I always thought it referred to the seven small gems that wound up on the crown of the King of Gondor...they were Elven gems and shown like stars...
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03-06-2001, 06:15 AM | #7 |
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Seven Stars
Why do you think there were seven stars in his crown? That number wasn't randomly picked, it was a symbol of the Sickle of the Valar, that Varda put in the skies as a threat and a challenge to Morgoth.
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03-08-2001, 07:49 AM | #8 |
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Re: Seven Stars
Are you sure the Big Dipper is also known as Durin's Crown? I get the giggles imagining a stern kingly dwarf wearing a big dipper on his head!! I can imagine Bilbo writing in his history books:
"Now in contrast with the winged Crown of the Kings of Gondor is the Crown of Durin, which noted for its long handle..." |
03-12-2001, 10:23 AM | #9 |
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Re: Seven Stars
THere is also something else. The original crown of Gondor was none other than Isildur's war-helm that he wore during the Last Alliance. As far as I know, it was unadorned with gems.
The crown of mithril and presumably set with seven gems was made during the rule of Atanatar Alcarin. Since that crown didn't exist when Elendil came, the "Seven Stars" can't be referring to the jewels in that crown. I also note that Tolkien must have been something of a starwatcher, because he stated in LOTR that red Borgil/Betelgeuse was the first star of Menelvagor/Orion to rise above the horizon. So the question of the Seven Stars is still unanswered.... I favour that they are some kind of royal treasure, like the Elendilmir that Arnorian kings wore... |
03-20-2001, 05:15 AM | #10 |
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Re: Seven Stars
The Seven Stars of any device did not have to refer to a different crown or other if you think about it, because before any Man wore a crown there was the Sickle of the Valar, made of seven stars.
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03-20-2001, 05:21 AM | #11 |
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Re: Seven Stars
Hmmm.... interesting point. The Seven Stars may be some abstract thing or idea. A symbol of opposition to all evil.
Or maybe even like the Ten Commandments, "the Seven Commandments of Iluvatar".... naahhh.... |
03-20-2001, 05:33 AM | #12 |
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Re: Seven Stars
The seven stars in the standard of Aragorn represented Elendil and his captains, according to the index of The Lord of the Rings.
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03-21-2001, 12:42 AM | #13 |
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Re: Seven Stars
Oh.
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03-21-2001, 07:50 AM | #14 |
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Re: Seven Stars
Hmmm.... that means the rhyme "Seven Stars and Seven etc." itself is quite recent, and didn't exist when Elendil came.
Of course maybe Elendil did bring seven captains with him... |
03-21-2001, 04:30 PM | #15 |
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Re: Seven Stars
He would have brought six, being himself the seventh.
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03-27-2001, 01:23 AM | #16 |
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Re: Seven Stars
Sorry!! I thought Martinez said "Aragorn brought seven captains". I see now he said "ELENDIL brought seven captains". Whoops.
Were the seven (six?) captains ever named? Did they include his sons? |
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