Classification of the undead and the unquiet dead

[Gordis]

What say you if we try to classify the "otherwordly" beings of Middle Earth?

Here is my first attempt:

1.The Undead, the Faded - with a physical body (hröa) present, but invisible (remaining in the World of Shadow)
1a. Ringwraiths
1b. Wraiths (victims of the Morgul blades)
1c. Faded Elves, the Lingerers.

2. The Unbodied, ghosts of the dead - naked spirit (fëa) without a body (hröa)
2a. Ghosts of dead Men (Dead of Dunharrow, Helm's ghost, etc)
2b. Ghosts of dead Elves: Houseless Elves who refused the summons of Mandos
2c. Ghosts of dead Orcs "left naked on the other side" (see Gorbag's words)
2d. Unbodied Maiar (Saruman after death, Sauron after his downfall etc.)

3. The fëar of the Dead housed in some bodies not their own, or in objects.
3a. Houseless Elves "housed" unlawfully in living bodies of Elves and Men - "possession"
3b. Houseless Elves (or other naked spirits)"housed" in dead bodies (not their own) - Barrow-wights
3c. Some spirits "housed" in stones - Silent Watchers of Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol
3d. Some spirits "housed" in animal bodies - werewolves (and wereworms?)

4. Fëar housed in visible material bodies (hröar)
4a. Self-incarnate Valar and Maiar - Morgoth, Melian, First and Second Age Sauron, the Istari, etc.
4b. Re-embodied (by Eru) Maia -Gandalf the White
4c. Re-embodied (with the help of the Ring) Maia - Sauron
4d. Re-embodied in Mandos Elven fëar - Glorfindel, and other re-embodied Elves who stayed in Valinor.
4e. Re-embodied in Mandos (exceptional case) Mannish fëa - Beren

I have already posted it on another forum, but I would love to hear the Mooter's opinion. I will edit this post to incorporate your suggestions

[Curufin]

This is good, but I still think re-embodied elves should have a category - they're different.

And also, what about unhoused Valar and Maiar?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Curufin

And also, what about unhoused Valar and Maiar?

I agree with Curufin that unhoused Maiar should probably have a category. For instance, I doubt that Sauron, Saruman, and the Balrog ran straight to Mandos after having their bodies destroyed. Were their spirits so different from Elves that they wouldn't be considered dead?

Also, what about Orcs who got the big punishment of being left "naked on the other side"? Do you think this was just an empty threat used to intimidate the Orcs or was there actually something to it?

Overall, it looks pretty good to me Gordis.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think when you introduce spirits of creatures who's natural state is spirit, you're opening this thing up to unnecessary complications. "Were their spirits so different from Elves that they wouldn't be considered dead?" I think so, yes. The Children, Elves and Men, were unique in all creation, created by the hand of Eru himself with both body and spirit. Maiar and Valar were not so. They were spirits who created bodies for themselves.

On a scientific level, perhaps the spirits and bodies are all the same "stuff" but philosophically I don't think there's anything wrong with categorizing Elves and Men uniquely. In fact, I think it is appropriate.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I think when you introduce spirits of creatures who's natural state is spirit, you're opening this thing up to unnecessary complications. "Were their spirits so different from Elves that they wouldn't be considered dead?" I think so, yes. The Children, Elves and Men, were unique in all creation, created by the hand of Eru himself with both body and spirit. Maiar and Valar were not so. They were spirits who created bodies for themselves.

On a scientific level, perhaps the spirits and bodies are all the same "stuff" but philosophically I don't think there's anything wrong with categorizing Elves and Men uniquely. In fact, I think it is appropriate.

Well, I think I agree and disagree. You may be right that calling Maiar whose bodies have been destroyed "dead" is inappropriate, but I am not entirely sure. An exact definition for dead in Tolkien's world might be hard to come by, with the different types of spirits and umm...the different types of situations they may find themselves in. Also, I think it can be argued that, in some important ways, the spirits of the Maiar are much more similar to those of Elves than the spirits of Men are, so why wouldn't they be included? It really depends on how open or closed we want the categories to be. After all, it could be easily argued that the spirits of Elves and Men are too different from each other to both be included in one category.

[Earniel]

Is there much evidence on these houseless Elves being houses unlawfully in bodies?

[Curufin]

Well, something like it is mentioned in HoME...in Laws and Customs, I believe?

Yeah, here it is:

It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own’s will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.

[Gordis]

Thank you all for quite valuable suggestions, Curufin, CAB and DPR.
I have edited the first post (see parts in blue).
What do you think now?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Thank you all for quite valuable suggestions, Curufin, CAB and DPR.
I have edited the first post (see parts in blue).
What do you think now?

I like it Gordis, but it does prove DPR's point about including Maiar, but then Tolkien did create a complicated world.

Off topic question: 4d. Re-embodied in Mandos Elven fear - Glorfindel, etc. The etc. would have to include Luthien, right? Considering how strong Glorfindel got after his return, just how big an ass-kicker would Luthien have been? No wonder nobody tried to take the Silmaril from her. I never thought about that before.

[Curufin]

But Lúthien is a special case - she's not re-embodied as 'Eldar' but as 'Man' - at least, that's the closest thing you could come to it. She dies and her spirit leaves Arda...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Curufin

But Lúthien is a special case - she's not re-embodied as 'Eldar' but as 'Man' - at least, that's the closest thing you could come to it. She dies and her spirit leaves Arda...

Yeah, that's true. That probably would make a difference.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

4d. Re-embodied in Mandos Elven fear - Glorfindel, etc. The etc. would have to include Luthien, right? Considering how strong Glorfindel got after his return, just how big an ass-kicker would Luthien have been? No wonder nobody tried to take the Silmaril from her. I never thought about that before.

Curufin is right about Luthien. I don't think she has acquired any super-powers, likely she became weaker, but she acquired sanctity - thus nobody thought of robbing her while she lived.

"etc." refers to all those hundreds of re-incarnate Elves who never came to ME, but stayed in Valinor.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

My guess is nothing changed about Luthien at all except her fate, but that's just a guess.

[Jon S.]

If it were our age, you'd have to add

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