Venice = Gondor?

[Starr Polish]

As I was flipping through my copy of "Letters", I came across this fleeting reference in Letter 168 (emphasis added):

Thank you very much for your letter.... It came while I was away in Gondor (sc. Venice)...."

Now, I'm probably reading into this, since this letter and trip occurred in 1955, but is it possible that the art and culture of Italy/Venice inspired Tolkien's vision of Gondor? I haven't seen many references in the book as I've read it, but I could have easily missed this.

[Valandil]

Starr,

I think JRRT once noted that if the Shire was at Oxford, then Minas Tirith would be located about where Venice is (again, I THINK... ) - so it was probably just a little inside joke to whomever he's writing.

I do think of the climate of Italy in some respects regarding Gondor - and wonder if some of Gondor's country estates might be like Italian villas (what was that movie - "Much Ado About Nothing" - the Shakespeare play that sounds right out of 'Seinfeld' - nice Italian villa in it - if I'm thinking of the right one).

[Tuor of Gondolin]

And Humphrey Carpenter's biography of JRRT tells of him on a vacation to Italy and writing in a diary:

He kept a diary, and recorded his feeling of having "come to the heart of Christendom: an exile from the borders and far provinces returning home, or at least to the home of his fathers." In Venice among the canals he found himself "almost free of the cursed disease of the internal combustion engine of which all the world is dying"; and he wrote afterwards: "Venice seemed incredibly, elvishly lovely - to me like a dream of Old Gondor, or Pelargir of the Numenorean Ships, before the return of the Shadow."

Also, while (somewhere in the "Letters"?) I believe Tolkien says he saw Gondorians as resembling ancient Egyptians in thinking and interest in monumental aerchitecture, I think a better analog might be Byzantium, and specifically Constantinople.

Of course, you can also think (in general terms) of Rohan as France and Gondor as Italy, certainly climate-wise. And if you think in historical terms, from about 500 B.C. to 1000 A. D., Italy the older, gradually declining power and Gaul the younger, rougher, more energetic area half in contact with and in awe of the older region.

[LeniFreak]

Of course, you can also think (in general terms) of Rohan as France and Gondor as Italy, certainly climate-wise. And if you think in historical terms, from about 500 B.C. to 1000 A. D., Italy the older, gradually declining power and Gaul the younger, rougher, more energetic area half in contact with and in awe of the older region.

Yes, definitely. There are sort of two levels at which the setup/populations of Middle Earth mirror the "Europe of yore"--in regards to non-humans, the hobbits are country-British, dwarves Scandinavian, elves a later (more refined/courtly) French, or perhaps late Romans, and so on; then within the human groups, Gondor is Italy, and Rohan is Gaul. However, while Rohan is Gallic in their interaction with the declining Gondor/Italy, culturally the people of Rohan have always reminded me of the early Britons/Irish-Gaelic people.

Also, while (somewhere in the "Letters"?) I believe Tolkien says he saw Gondorians as resembling ancient Egyptians in thinking and interest in monumental aerchitecture, I think a better analog might be Byzantium, and specifically Constantinople.

Architecturally speaking, I agree. As for thinking, I really have to stick with a declining Italy as my comparison.

[Dúnedain]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LeniFreak
Yes, definitely. There are sort of two levels at which the setup/populations of Middle Earth mirror the "Europe of yore"--in regards to non-humans, the hobbits are country-British, dwarves Scandinavian, elves a later (more refined/courtly) French, or perhaps late Romans, and so on; then within the human groups, Gondor is Italy, and Rohan is Gaul. However, while Rohan is Gallic in their interaction with the declining Gondor/Italy, culturally the people of Rohan have always reminded me of the early Britons/Irish-Gaelic people.

Also, while (somewhere in the "Letters"?) I believe Tolkien says he saw Gondorians as resembling ancient Egyptians in thinking and interest in monumental aerchitecture, I think a better analog might be Byzantium, and specifically Constantinople.
QUOTE]

Architecturally speaking, I agree. As for thinking, I really have to stick with a declining Italy as my comparison.

There was no "Italy" until the unification in 1859-1861. So it may be more appropriate to state it as "Rome". Byzantium was also part of the Roman Empire...

[LeniFreak]

There was no "Italy" until the unification in 1859-1861. So it may be more appropriate to state it as "Rome". Byzantium was also part of the Roman Empire...

Oops. Yeah, Rome was what I meant. Byzantium was part of the Roman Empire, yes, but it was a state within it...and when Diocletian broke the Empire in half to ease its rule (I think), Byzantium survived for a thousand years after the Western Empire crumbled into dust...

But yes, Rome was what I meant.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by LeniFreak
Oops. Yeah, Rome was what I meant. Byzantium was part of the Roman Empire, yes, but it was a state within it...and when Diocletian broke the Empire in half to ease its rule (I think), Byzantium survived for a thousand years after the Western Empire crumbled into dust...

But yes, Rome was what I meant.

Yes it continued on for about a thousand years more, but was still thought of as the Roman Empire...

[Anglorfin]

On a not so deep level, Tolkien could have just meant what he said about being "free from the combustion engines . . ." Venice was pure and that in itself carried a beauty all of it's own. Much like I myself would imagine Minas Tirith. To me, the city itself was described not as "the most beautiful city on earth" or anything but it was described in a way that made it seem flawless, or regal and kingly. I would say the image of Minas Tirith almost sparkled in my mind.

Going along with that, Venice itself is an architectural wonder, and the mere fact that so much of the ancient stuff is submerged now invites both a feeling of wonder and of nostalgic intrigue. Like knowing that there is something more to it but also knowing that you will probably never find out what. I've always thought of Minas Tirith with a similar attitude. I love the purity of the city (white walls, white tree, city of the King) but at the same time it has undoubtedly seen better days. The fact that there is no longer a King I think represents that aspect.

[GrayMouser]

Valandil, I accidentally deleted your PM, but thanks for the notice - it's exactly what I was looking for.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Valandil, I accidentally deleted your PM, but thanks for the notice - it's exactly what I was looking for.

No problem - and "you're welcome!"

For those who don't have the foggiest - we're talking about a link in a post by Radagast The Brown in 'map of middle earth' Thread in the Middle Earth forum. The link is to a map of Middle Earth superimposed over Europe. GrayMouser had asked about that some months ago - and RtB finally saw it and came through for him, so I just let him know.