04-16-2006, 02:01 PM | #1 |
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Why wasn't Gollum turned into a wraith?
Is the reason Gollum didn’t become a wraith after possessing the Ring for nearly five hundred years explained solely by the Hobbits’ natural resistance, or is there something more?
I think one important point to consider is Gollum’s appearance compared to other mortal ringbearers. Bilbo and Frodo seem simply to be ageing very slowly. We don’t have much of a description of what the Nazgul looked like, but what we do have suggests that they appeared to essentially resemble very old men. While admittedly in one scene (The Stairs of Cirith Ungol - The Two Towers) Gollum is said to basically resemble an old Hobbit, this is the exception. More often Gollum is described in terms more similar to descriptions of Orcs than Hobbits or Men. (Actually I think Gollum may have been essentially been an Orc made from a Hobbit specimen by the time of the Lord of the Rings. No, I am not suggesting that Morgoth or Sauron used rings to make Orcs. Rather I think the twisting and cruelty of the process and the end result were much the same.) One might argue that the One Ring wasn’t intended to create wraiths since Sauron never planned on another holding it. Yet it seems the evil power of the One and Nine are very similar, probably due to their connection. Why would the One give the holder a view into the Unseen world? Surely Sauron already possessed this power. Why would the One extend it’s holder’s life? Sauron was immortal. I am not sure how the Seven and Three fit in here. My guess is that the Seven at least were basically (if not exactly) the same as the Nine and that the Dwarves simply reacted to them differently than Men or Hobbits would. The Three may have been the exception due to the fact they remained “unsullied” or perhaps their holders reaction was different due to the Elves immortality and strength. I personally don’t believe that Sauron originally intended for any of the rings to make their holders wraiths. It would make sense that the rings were meant to bring groups of people, rather than only individuals, under Sauron’s control, and so were given to leaders or potential leaders. Why would Sauron want these leaders, who presumably would be coaxing or forcing their followers to serve Sauron, to become wraiths? My guess is that, in spite of Sauron’s intentions, mortals, or at least Men (and Hobbits are, I believe, a branch of Men) began to age rapidly at a certain point after holding a great ring. Perhaps at this point Sauron must act, probably via the One Ring, creating the “fading” process to cause the ringholder to become a Ringwraith and thus somewhat salvage and retain his servant. If he doesn’t act then the ringholder is relatively quickly twisted into an Orclike/Gollumlike creature. If this were true it would help explain the nature of Gollum’s existence. Obviously, Sauron couldn’t change Gollum to a Ringwraith via the One since Gollum was holding it. I have no doubt that this theory has some flaws. There is certainly a lot of conjecture in my conclusion. However the original question seems quite intriguing and doesn’t seem to have been discussed here before. I would be very interested to hear what others think about it. |
04-16-2006, 03:49 PM | #2 | |
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As for Gollum my guess would be that it is because he didn't wear it all of, if any of the time. The Nine most likely wore their Rings all of the time, as a sign of their Kingship. Yet in the Hobbit it says Gollum only wore his Ring when he went hunting for stray goblins.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-17-2006, 07:57 AM | #3 |
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Interesting question.
In The Shadow of the Past, Gandalf connects Bilbo's lack of apparent ageing with his possession of the ring, not his wearing of it. The possessor then becomes a withered creature - "stretched" in Bilbo's words - like Gollum. The "fading" to the "other side" is connected with wearing it. And with the Morgul-knife of course. Notice how the wraiths could not physically seize Frodo until he was "on the other side". I think that we are explicitly told that Gollum used to be a hobbit many times in The Hobbit and LOTR. |
04-17-2006, 11:06 AM | #4 | ||||||||||||
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Most interesting thread, CAB! Thank you so much for starting it!
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1. Hobbits' natural resistance 2. Gollum used the Ring very little (as TD says), and only for invisibility (which I believe was the most innocent use), NOT for dominating other Rings (or other wills), or for some sorcery. 3. Third factor would be good vs evil intent at the beginning. But Gollum came into the possession of the Ring through murder, and used it for spying on his relatives and for stealing, so the third factor worked against him. Quote:
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First of all, VERY old men have white hair (or no hair at all ), not grey. Secondly, perhaps, that was just the way the nazgul looked in the spirit world, where all seems to be in shades of grey. (Note also that the WK's long hair was gleaming). After all, when Frodo was suffering from the Morgul wound and Sam was wearing the Ring in Mordor, everything was gray and cloudy. So, really, we only have to deal with "haggard": Quote:
http://www.barrowdowns.com/tt-haggard.php I think, the nazgul still physically had the same age when they were given their Rings. They have become wraiths while wearing them, so, later, even without their rings, the wraiths didn't age. But that doesn't mean the nazgul looked as flourishing and healthy as they did before the Rings. They were gaunt and haggard. I think all these changes happened when their natural lifespan ended, and their lives became stretched. Bilbo at 111, only just entered into this period (hobbits lived to around 100): he complained he recently felt tired, old, needing a holiday, restless and stretched like little butter over too much bread. Also he felt the Eye and the need to have the ring closer and closer to him: keeping it in his pocket. The nazgul must have endured all the horrors of this long transitional period, before they turned wraiths. Perhaps they lived more than a hundred years like that, still alive, but completely exhausted mentally ("until at last every minute is a weariness"-LOTR). That is when they became gaunt and haggard, IMHO: probably they stopped eating and sleeping. And, for Men, this period was longer and even more torturous if the ringbearer "was strong or well-meaning to begin with"-LOTR. (So basically the more haggard a nazgul looks, the better man he had been in life, while the healthy-looking ones were weak and evil when alive ). Quote:
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Moreover there is this quote from letters: Quote:
What sayest thou, CAB? And I will be grateful for other Mooters' comments as well! Last edited by Gordis : 04-17-2006 at 11:38 AM. |
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04-22-2006, 01:02 AM | #5 |
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Very interesting thread indeed
I think that the reason why gollum wasn't turned into a wraith was because he never came into direct contact with Sauron or the Nazgul (while in posetion of the ring of corse).
Maybe to fully become a servant of Sauron, you would need to first be directly in the presence of Sauron (or a Nazgul). But then again, how do we know that the nine ever came face to face with Sauron
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04-22-2006, 06:25 AM | #6 |
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I disagree, as the power of Sauron was in the One. They wouldn't need to come into contact with SAuron or the Nine.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
04-22-2006, 07:12 AM | #7 | |
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4. Remember that it took a very long time for the bearers of the Nine to become Wraiths. Over 500 years I believe. Consider this with #'s 1 and 2 above. 5. Gollum was never stabbed by a Morgul blade - which might have immensely speeded the process, if it reached the heart or otherwise caused death (as was nearly so for Frodo). So... Gollum was a Wraith in the making, but hadn't arrived yet.
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04-22-2006, 09:57 AM | #8 | ||
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Thank you to everyone for your replies. Sorry I am just now getting back. It has been a busy week for me.
I think what you all (except Sam) are saying is basically in line with the reasons Gandalf gave. I can’t really argue much with this line of reasoning. Still, I think it may be a bit more complicated than this. While Gandalf’s explanation may tell us why Gollum wasn’t turned into wraith, it doesn’t necessarily tell us how the Nazgul were. These ideas from the first post haven’t been discussed yet (reasonably enough since they aren’t entirely concerned with the original question). Quote:
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We seem to (somewhat at least) agree. I don’t think direct contact with the Nazgul or Sauron was needed but I do think that Sauron had to be aware of the ringholder (via the One Ring) and cause the “wraithing” process (again via the One Ring). If the great rings were meant to make wraiths, why would it take so long? The morgul knife can apparently accomplish this in just days. Yes the knife causes a wound and leaves a splinter but the rings have to be much more powerful. Should the difference in the efficiency in wraith-making between the two be that great? Would anyone like to comment on these points from the first post about how the Nazgul were created? 1. Sauron must be holding the One Ring for the other rings to make wraiths. 2. Sauron causes “fading” process rather than this being a result of the ringholder’s extended life. 3. The reason Sauron created the Nazgul was to make the best of the situation. The ringholders would eventually turn into Orclike/Gollumlike creatures if he didn’t act. He preferred to have nine ringwraiths to having nine (probably exceptional) Orclike creatures. |
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04-22-2006, 01:44 PM | #9 | ||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-23-2006, 07:30 AM | #10 |
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Personally I always thought that wraith-dom wasn't determined by how long a ring is worn or by Sauron' s control over it. I always thought the determining factor was trying to master and/or use the power of the rings. Gollum wore the ring for long but didn't try to use it. The invisibility was standard when wearing it, Gollum didn't have to bend the One Ring to his will to become invisible. (I doubt think Gollum would have been strong enough for that anyway.)
The Nine rings surely must have had some strengths or powers and I'm sure thei bearers were able to use them to that capacity.
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04-23-2006, 09:38 AM | #11 | |||
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You are right, I think, that the Dwarves weren’t changed to wraiths due to their nature, but I think this also applies (in a different way) to the Elves and Gandalf. When speaking with Frodo, Gandalf implied that only mortals fade (become wraiths). It is also possible that the Three, being “unsullied” didn’t have the power to make wraiths. Quote:
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04-23-2006, 10:37 AM | #12 | ||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-23-2006, 06:01 PM | #13 | ||||||
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I think these are two different things: becoming a wraith and becoming Sauron's servant. Gollum wasn't turned into a wraith mostly because he was a hobbit - uncommonly resistant creature. And he didn't become a servant of Sauron, but only a servant of the Ring, because Sauron had no real hook for him. The nazgul in the Second age wielded the Nine Rings which were controlled by the One, held by Sauron. Thus he had direct access to their minds - and must have used the link a lot for brainwashing. Remember when Sauron first put on the One and uttered the Ring-Spell (Ash nazg drabatuluk etc..), all the Elves who had the Ring of Power heard it immediately. And Sauron was in Mordor, while they were far away in Eregion. So, there was a strong mental link between the Wielders of the Nine, Seven and Three and the wielder of the One - Sauron. No doubt, gradually, the future nazgul had become Sauron's servants - at the same time or before as they became wraiths. Now with Gollum, Sauron had no communication whatsoever. Gollum became slave to the Ring, and to the Master of the Ring (that hold on him Frodo used), but hated Sauron all the more. Even when captured and tortured in Mordor, even questioned by Sauron himself, he didn't tell all he knew - not a small feat! Look at Frodo - he advanced greatly towards wraithdom (aided by the Morgul wound) but he showed no signs of becoming Sauron's servant. I am sure, if Sauron gave one of the Nine Rings to a Man again, but not in the Second Age when he had the One, but in the Third Age, when the One was lost, the man would have become a wraith, but NOT Sauron's servant. Quote:
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Now your points, CAB. " 1. Sauron must be holding the One Ring for the other rings to make wraiths." I disagree. I put it thus: Sauron must be holding the One Ring for the other Rings to make their wielders evil and his servants. "2. Sauron causes “fading” process rather than this being a result of the ringholder’s extended life." Again, I don't think so. Men wielding the Rings of Power (at least the 7 and the 9) become wraiths anyway. "3. The reason Sauron created the Nazgul was to make the best of the situation. The ringholders would eventually turn into Orclike/Gollumlike creatures if he didn’t act. He preferred to have nine ringwraiths to having nine (probably exceptional) Orclike creatures" Gollum was turning into a slimy spidery creature only because he spent 500 years in a cave. Had a future nazgul chosen to live in a cave, he would have mutated the same way, but not so much, as he would have become a wraith and stopped changing earlier. Frodo and Bilbo showed no signs of turning "orclike" or Gollumlike", at least physically. The nazgul, kings or high lords, most likely lead their usual life up to the end, so they showed no "gollum-like" features, only became gaunt and haggard from long mental suffering before the end. That is my POV on the matter. I thank you again, CAB, for starting this most interesting discussion. |
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04-29-2006, 04:22 PM | #14 | ||
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I think we all failed to consider another factor: Shelob. Quote:
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04-29-2006, 09:05 PM | #15 | |
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04-30-2006, 12:18 PM | #16 | |
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Last edited by Gordis : 04-30-2006 at 12:19 PM. |
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06-10-2006, 03:37 AM | #17 |
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Gollum, does certainly seem to be a wraith in the making. Here is something I'm considering though... Would Gollum have to have been wounded or stabbed by Sauron himself or a Nazgul in order to completely become a wraith?
I wonder though did Sauron stab or wound the nine kings who eventually became ringwraiths himself, while they were under the power of the rings, in order to speed the process of becoming wraiths along? Frodo was stabbed by one of the nine ( was it Angmar?) and so began to turn into a wraith. Was this potential wraithing (sorry) of Frodo happening quickly because he was wearing the ONE ring when he was stabbed with the Morgul blade. Would anyone stabbed with a Morgul blade become a wraith? I guess what I'm considering is would Gollum have to be wounded by either Sauron or one of the Ringwraiths in order to become a wraith? As far as we know he was questioned and tortured but would he need something other than the power of the one ring working on him to be a wraith? Last edited by Zilbanne : 06-11-2006 at 02:54 AM. |
06-10-2006, 06:14 AM | #18 |
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Great points worth discussion, CAB!
IMO, turning into a wraith requires some specific spell. The morgul blades were probably wound about with such a spell, so getting stabbed would automatically do it. The nine ring-beares were under the influence of their rings, so also under the influence of the one, and so under the influence of Sauron, who could have put on them a very nasty and torturous spell at his leisure. Evil always delights in doing evil, both small and big. So even if the nine were less useful as wraiths than as humans, the great evil done in the process would be worth it. Finally, since Sauron never expected to lose the one, it was always intended for him alone, maybe it did not have such a spell of becoming a wraith. And maybe all its effects and powers we see on gollum and the hobbits, are all side effects, and a mortal wearer would not become a wraith. I think Sauron also didn't have power over the bearer, and could not put the wearer under a spell of "wraithing" as he did for the nine...
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06-10-2006, 09:02 AM | #19 | ||||||
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Welcome to the Moot, Zilbanne!
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"Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore: an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises. Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old tree-roots. I think it likely that some would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe.". Surely stabbing Gollum with a Morgul-Knife would have turned him into a wraith. But the Morgul poison/spell was made just for wraithing people, while with the Rings, turning the wielders into wraiths might have been an undesired side-effect. Note, that Gollum had been to Mordor, even in Barad-Dur. If the Dark Lord wished him to become a wraith, he would have dispatched him to the other side speedily. But Gollum was more useful when still in this World. Quote:
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06-10-2006, 09:30 AM | #20 | ||||
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I think, it also had all the powers, properties and side-effects contained in the other rings, including invisibility (because really why would Sauron need invisibility himself?). The One Ring, when wielded by Sauron to its fill power, could "kindle hearts" as Narya, preserve large territories from fading, like Nenya, transfer a physical body into the Spirit world as the 9, could make people greedy as the 7, and so on. So a mortal wielder of the One would become a wraith, but not much faster than one wielding one of the 9. Quote:
For the same reason, Sauron couldn't bestow the Nine he has gathered to himself to men again, to make more nazgul, while he had NO Ruling ring in his possession. The wielder of one of the Nine in the Third Age would have become a wraith, but not Sauron's servant. |
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