11-13-2006, 12:41 PM | #1 | |
Elven Warrior
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Putting Saddam's conviction into perspective
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11-13-2006, 02:37 PM | #2 |
Quasi Evil
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It is a pretty desperate and despicable attempt to effect the election but I dont really think it did. Because most Americans assumed he was going to get convicted anyway. I mean who thinks hes actually innocent? So for the Bush administration to crow about this as some great accomplishment seems silly and makes them look out of touch and ridiculous. So I never really saw this as a big deal in regards to the election. In fact Id hazard a guess it actualy hurt the republicans more then it helped them.
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11-13-2006, 03:39 PM | #3 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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I might point out that some reporters have now interviewed several Iraqis who are freaking out that we're going to leave. Gee guys, it sure woulda been nice to know that BEFORE the election
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11-13-2006, 05:23 PM | #4 |
Quasi Evil
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Just the Sunnis. But that doesnt mean they dont still hate us more then the Shiites its just they know we will protect them anyway. So Im not sure it will help Bush to have people who hate us asking us not to leave.
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11-13-2006, 05:33 PM | #5 | |
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11-13-2006, 05:39 PM | #6 |
Quasi Evil
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Well Id bring up recent poll numbers but I know how that gets you worked up into a knot and all.
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11-13-2006, 05:43 PM | #7 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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And if you can prove to me, Rex, that a polls says ANYTHING at all that is somehow representative of the country's majority view, I'll give you a cookie. The fact is that my parents, taxpaying and voters that they are, have never been polled, except at the ballot box. The people who are polled are almost ALL old people.
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11-13-2006, 06:21 PM | #8 | |||
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I've never been polled either Hector, does that mean the views of university students in their 20s are never represented in polls? Of course not.
Participants for a good poll are selected randomly. The probability of your parents being selected out of 300 M Americans is pretty small. I agree that propogandising Saddam's death was a failed attempt to boost Republican support. Interesting that Republicans can't even create propoganda properly, a la: Quote:
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11-13-2006, 06:24 PM | #9 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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"Random" selection doesn't represent the country.
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11-13-2006, 06:58 PM | #10 | |
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/27/iraqis-poll/
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11-13-2006, 07:03 PM | #11 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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But I'll bet you my best dollar that once we DO leave, that place is going to fall like a tower of crackers. And of course, once we pull out, don't be surprised if we try to "make up" with people like al-Sod-head. "Oh! Me SO dissapointed with Amerika, but me nice, me want to maek it up with you, despite your mistakes."...and then it'll be back to square one.
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11-14-2006, 03:19 PM | #12 |
The Black Númenórean
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It sorta kinda is a tower of crackers and its tumbling down on the US as they are still in it... And I dunno, I dont like it. I've had to personally burry so many on account of the chemical and other weapons given to that madman to fight my country with. I still have to see little kids step on left over landmines. For that, Saddam and US are on the same list, I wont forgive them for it.
Funny how it was only that one little issue of 148 people. That's like spit in the sea compared to his other exploits. I too wish he could die many more times, and kill him with the same gas he dropped on Kurdish, Iranian and Iraqi villages. Anyone know why that was the only charge he got nailed with? He has so many more, so very many more. And for the same token, the blood is also on the hands that supported him. Say what you want, but for people over here, my people and other people in the region, that's how we look at it. The popular feeling, American sponosored polls aside, is that this is just another show of the master beating the attack dog for it killing on his behest. Trust me, it's a mess.
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11-14-2006, 05:29 PM | #13 | |
Elf Lord
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Saddam attacked Iran because he wanted Khuzestan's oil fields. What evidence do you have that we pushed him to do it at all?
But after the war was going, if we had allowed Iran to defeat Iraq and overthrow Saddam, then you'd have had Iran dominating Iraq's Shi'ites and oil fields. They were Islamic extremists already and had kidnapped people from our embassy- you know they were celebrating the anniversary of the hostage incident a week or two ago. These people were our enemies. Saddam was very bad too, but at least he wasn't interested in attacking our people like Iran was. Though I grant you, this doesn't justify giving Saddam chemical weapons. Quote:
Wouldn't it be ironic if Iran ended up dealing Al'Qaeda the knock out blow? I'm beginning to think that that might happen, because Al'Qaeda is investing so much in this war. Not that they could certainly destroy Al'Qaeda's international network in the short term, but they might do that in the long term.
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11-14-2006, 05:50 PM | #14 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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11-14-2006, 05:59 PM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-20-2006, 06:17 AM | #16 |
Hobbit
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Fear does much to sway minds. Kill 200 people at a voting booth in one city on one day, and you can keep 200,000 from voting all over the country if it was the right booth on the right day.
This is going to sound counter-intuitive and against some things I actually think, but once you get past the devil's advocate part it makes sense. I give you the example of the Roman Empire's Republican period defense, as proposed by Edward Luttwak. The inner core of the Empire is defended by the Legions, which are not stationed on the active frontier, rather on the borders of the Empire proper. Outside that are several loyal client kingdoms ringing the border. All of them are comparatively weak vis a vis Rome, so they weren't worried about attacks, just buffers. Barbarian tribes would hit the client states, who would then defend themselves with local forces. Only if the incursion was way too strong, or the client kingdom rebelled against Rome, would we see the Legion on the frontier. According to the same book, Luttwak postulates that the Legion became overextended when it annexed the client kingdoms, forcing it to cover its entire long frontier with its own troops. Instead of performing a police/backup role, said troops actually had to spread out and cover the whole thing, which thinned it and made it much more of a drain on resources and manpower. I move this into the present day. America obviously wants to get the best hegemonic type empire it can create. The army cannot project/occupy everywhere, but we'd prefer everyone listened to us and used their own forces to engage the enemy so that we didn't have to. Thus, I'm sure we'd prefer that the Al Qaeda in Iraq guys were taken down by Iraqi troops so that our guys can celebrate Christmas. The ideal way to do this is to go in, set up a government (preferably as loyal as possible) and leave. Saddam is a guy the Romans would have paraded down the street in a military parade, but he lost about all significance once Baghdad fell. We can execute him, we can imprison him, we can make him dance in a dog and pony show, but I don't think that it will really matter with regard to stability in Iraq. Personally, I think the country should be partitioned, for their sake and ours. This message is written in a geopolitical sense, and it's not all my personal belief. If I didn't say "I think" then you may want to ask if I was just writing it to make a point, or if I really believed the entire sentence.
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11-20-2006, 09:17 AM | #17 |
Elf Lord
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That's an interesting perspective, but it falls down on a couple of points:
1) Firstly, there is no Al Quaeda "frontier", because they are a terrorist organisation 2) Secondly, Iraq only became a hotbed of terrorism because we invaded it; 3) That might have been part of the plan: create a conventional conflict to give the terrorists something else to do other than bomb aeroplanes; that's probably the only way in which this war can be considered a success, but even then, it's highly debatable as it's certainly increased the number of nutters out there prepared to carry out suicide attacks. 4) This was, in fact, what Saddam was doing as Our Man in Baghdad in the 80s: holding back Iran. Now we've knackered him, Iran stands ready to benefit most from our dunderheadedness. All of which makes you wonder just how utterly clueless the people who decided to invade are. |
11-20-2006, 10:41 AM | #18 |
Hobbit
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1. I fully agree with you. I guess the best we can hope for is give them serious problems with creating a base, which can only be done by creating stable, democratic societies. Iraq won't be that way for a while.
2. Probably, though those fighters would have gone somewhere to fight us at some point, I think. 3. That's definitely not a success at all, as killing our troops is becoming almost as efficient as killing civilians apparently. 4. You're probably right on that count, too. I'm not entirely against all war, but if you look at the geopolitical situation right now, there are a couple countries we could have really invaded and done something good in. Initially, this invasion turned out well, but it soured very quickly due to the idiocy of everyone involved. If you want to get WMD, there's a crazy Asian country that's been at it for 50 years (NK) that's just asking for it. If they HAD to go after someone....why Iraq?
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11-20-2006, 11:37 AM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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1) Yes, though progress in this area has been somewhat in the wrong direction.
2) Not all of 'em. In fact, probably only a fraction, though that's speculation. 3) The civilian death rate in Iraq far outstrips the death rate amongst troops. Mind you, there is a blurred line between insurgent activity (e.g. that bomb last week that blew away dozens of people queuing at an Iraqi police recruiting office), sectarian violence and general criminality which has been unleashed since Saddam was toppled. If you take the much-maligned Lancet study as a benchmark, over 100 civilians have died for every US soldier who has died. (On reflection, you might have been referring to American civilians, in which case that's true, sadly.) 4) Yeah, agreed there. It wasn't about WMDs, it wasn't about terrorism, it wasn't about some messianic mission to deliver democracy. The only possible conclusion from perusal of the evidence is, to my mind, securing oil supplies and finding some use for all that military hardware and taxpayers' dollars that swill about the defence department not yielding much of a return for Papa Bush and his cronies. Just about everyone warned them it would turn out badly, even their own top brass, but they just sacked or ignored anyone who told them a message they didn't want to hear. At last, it seems, they are being held accountable by the electorate, though it is a shame that Bush and Cheney won't be personally brought to book. I'm not against all war either. I am against totally idiotic wars fought for illegitimate purposes, though. |
11-20-2006, 12:03 PM | #20 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Quote: Iraq is one of seven countries that have been designated by the Secretary of State as state sponsors of international terrorism. UNSCR 687 prohibits Saddam Hussein from committing or supporting terrorism, or allowing terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq. Saddam continues to violate these UNSCR provisions. In 1993, the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) directed and pursued an attempt to assassinate, through the use of a powerful car bomb, former U.S. President George Bush and the Emir of Kuwait. Kuwaiti authorities thwarted the terrorist plot and arrested 16 suspects, led by two Iraqi nationals. Iraq shelters terrorist groups including the Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MKO), which has used terrorist violence against Iran and in the 1970s was responsible for killing several U.S. military personnel and U.S. civilians. Iraq shelters several prominent Palestinian terrorist organizations in Baghdad, including the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), which is known for aerial attacks against Israel and is headed by Abu Abbas, who carried out the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro and murdered U.S. citizen Leon Klinghoffer. Iraq shelters the Abu Nidal Organization, an international terrorist organization that has carried out terrorist attacks in twenty countries, killing or injuring almost 900 people. Targets have included the United States and several other Western nations. Each of these groups have offices in Baghdad and receive training, logistical assistance, and financial aid from the government of Iraq. In April 2002, Saddam Hussein increased from $10,000 to $25,000 the money offered to families of Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers. The rules for rewarding suicide/homicide bombers are strict and insist that only someone who blows himself up with a belt of explosives gets the full payment. Payments are made on a strict scale, with different amounts for wounds, disablement, death as a "martyr" and $25,000 for a suicide bomber. Mahmoud Besharat, a representative on the West Bank who is handing out to families the money from Saddam, said, "You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue." Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret terrorist training facility in Iraq known as Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains, planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations. http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ir...ade/sect5.html
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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