11-28-2003, 03:55 PM | #1 |
Sapling
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The depths of Mount Doom
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"Necromancer"
This might strike most of you as a stupid question, but I'm curious and I don't want to make the wrong assumption.
Was the Necromancer mentioned in The Hobbit actually Sauron? My friends and I were arguing about that, but I don't see how he could be anyone else. |
11-28-2003, 04:45 PM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Yes. I think there's some some stuff about it in The Unfinished Tales (it's been a while since I've read it).
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A citizen runs to the fire department yelling that he's spotted a roaring blaze from his car. "WHERE IS IT?" the fire department asks, pen ready. "It rises like some brooding , glaring trail of cosmic fury from- " "WHERE? WHERE?" "Oh. Well, it blazes up from a crimson-sheathed visage brooding darkly above the haunted towers of impotent indignity which, like melons hovering unhappily over lifetimes of empty meaning which-" "THE ADDRESS!" "Oh. Oh, I didn't notice. But look for a brooding, glaring trail of cosmic fury rising from a crimson-sheathed visage-" They lead him back to his car, and send him on. -- Philip K. Dick "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -- Diderot |
11-28-2003, 05:08 PM | #3 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Yes it is Sauron. It is said also in LotR, appendix A, Durins Folk, and in Appendix B, The tale of years.
Btw, welcome Jade.
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11-28-2003, 06:22 PM | #4 |
Sapling
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Ahh. Well, I haven't read the Unfinished Tales yet, and I probably missed a big chunk of the information in the Appendices of LotR. But thanks for clearing that up for me.
And thank you Artanis. It's good to be here. |
11-29-2003, 12:08 AM | #5 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-03-2003, 10:13 PM | #6 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Yes, for a while I was pretty mystified about the whole Necromancer thing. After reading some other Tolkien books I got it cleared for myself. By the way where did you get that icon fom with Maedhros hanging from Thangorodrim?
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12-04-2003, 10:37 AM | #7 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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That avatar is made from a painting by Ted Nasmith. You can see all of it here.
(... hoping dear Russandol doesn't mind me answering for him)
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-04-2003 at 10:39 AM. |
12-04-2003, 12:40 PM | #8 |
King of Nargothrond
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Hello visitor...nice to see you...feel free to join!
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12-25-2003, 10:21 PM | #9 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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thats one of the things i love about the hobbit, that it mentions sauron(in the form of the necromancer).
well, does anyone have a suspicion that Tolkien planned the hobbit to be a lot similar to lotr?
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12-25-2003, 11:08 PM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by hectorberlioz
thats one of the things i love about the hobbit, that it mentions sauron(in the form of the necromancer). well, does anyone have a suspicion that Tolkien planned the hobbit to be a lot similar to lotr? ___________________________________ My initial impression was that The Hobbit was written as an independent work seperate from the Middle-earth history, like others he wrote and read to his children (say, Roverandom), but it seems hectorberlioz may be onto something. In JRRT's long letter to Milton Waldman in 1950 there is this observation: Quote:
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12-26-2003, 12:22 AM | #11 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Quote:
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12-26-2003, 12:49 AM | #12 | |
High King of Númenórë
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I believe, Tom Shippey, a Tolkien biographer, who wrote J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century goes on and speaks of it. In fact on one of the Extended Edition DVD's he is interviewed and discusses that point as well. I think it was on the TTT EE DVD...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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12-26-2003, 10:24 AM | #13 | |
Elf Lord
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:
So the addition of the Necromancer may not have been wholly arbitrary. The immediate cause was an excuse for Bilbo and the dwarves to be on their own, but subconsciously may also have been a way of at least rudimentarilly tying the tale more firmly to the legendarium. ------------------------------------------------------------------ It was written separately, because the first edition of the Hobbit, where Gollum and Bilbo meet was very different from what we know it today. When Tolkien began writing LotR, he had to change that chapter so he could make it work in LotR, with the Ring and all... __________________________________________ Oddly, both observations may be correct. It is true that The Hobbit was written before LOTR, and as a children's story with a "Riddles in the Dark" scene much in needing of alteration later (The Annotated Hobbit describes the changes well), but I also seem to recall reading somewhere that JRRT observed that he found elements of Middle-earth creeping in unbidden. Ah, just found an instance, from H. Carpernter's Biography: Quote:
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Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 12-26-2003 at 10:26 AM. |
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01-02-2004, 12:06 PM | #14 | |
The Tall
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The Power of the Necromancer
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas
Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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01-05-2004, 06:51 PM | #15 |
Orodruin's Flame
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kananaskis, AB
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lol i have a character on 'Diablo 2' thats a necromancer. Doesn't look much like sauron tho ....
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01-07-2004, 01:03 AM | #16 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Tolkien already had a lot of source material for LOTR done when he wrote The Hobbit, so I suspect he was unable to avoid some connection between the two. Spending that much time creating a fantasy world would certainly make it tough to write a story in a different one. From what I recall, he had no idea The Hobbit would do so well, so I doubt he intended to tie them together the way he did.
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01-07-2004, 03:45 AM | #17 | |||
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Re: "Necromancer"
Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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01-07-2004, 11:05 PM | #18 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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01-09-2004, 11:19 AM | #19 |
Elven Warrior
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Have you ever read the original version? I'm interested to know whether it was different in any other ways.
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01-09-2004, 11:49 AM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by Thorin II
Have you ever read the original version? I'm interested to know whether it was different in any other ways. ___________________________________ The best way to see is to get a copy of The Annotated Hobbit (annotated by Douglas A. Anderson). Appendix A discusses textual and Revisional notes.
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Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 01-09-2004 at 06:09 PM. |