04-01-2018, 12:25 AM | #1 |
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Saruman: The first 1760 years...
In LOTR, Saruman is identified with Isengard and the tower of Orthanc. However, he came to Middle Earth circa year 1000 of the Third Age, and only began to occupy Isengard in year 2759 - when Beren, Steward of Gondor, gave him the keys of Orthanc. That's only 260 years before the action of LOTR. He had been in Middle Earth for a LOT longer than that! What did he do, where did he go, and where did he stay - for all those years in between?
We do know a very little:
I have to wonder if he would have been most drawn to Gondor in this time. And yet - we see no real evidence of him at work in Gondor. I suspect that Gondor was his favored location (perhaps a reason Beren would have entrusted Orthanc and Isengard to him?) - but it's likely he traveled also among the Men who lived along Anduin, those further east - such as Dale and associated areas and Rhovanion... maybe even to and beyond the Sea of Rhun at times. Perhaps he went south - to Umbar, Far Hard and Khand. Maybe he even returned to Eriador and traveled about in Arthedain and sister kingdoms of Cardolan and Rhudaur - though I suspect only while the kingdoms remained, not after their fall. Interesting that he didn't seem all that interested in the Elves. I mostly wonder what things he took part in - and what things he stayed out of. And why. And what he did with himself for all those years. And what was he up to back East with the two Blue Wizards?
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04-02-2018, 05:52 PM | #2 | ||
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Saruman arrived first among the Istari. He went into the East with the Blue Wizards. (I think my recollection is correct; Valandil (and everyone else!) can correct me.) The White Council was formed in 2463 with Saruman as its head, making that the latest possible date for his return. That cuts down our window by three hundred years.
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Sauron’s spirit fled into the East after his disembodiment when Isildur cut the Ring from his hand. If I understand Tolkien correctly, Saruman at first accompanied the two Blue Wizards into the East. I suspect Saruman and the Blue Wizards expected to either find him or evidence of him there, unaware their Enemy had moved west into Mirkwood. Did Sauron leave his hiding place in the East because three Istari came looking for him there, or had he already moved? Tolkien wrote to Rhona Beare in October 1958 recorded as Letter 211 Quote:
But “the East” was the more dangerous approach. Anduin was the only natural barrier against invasion, and invasions came regularly, if spaced far apart in time.
I present this overlong discourse to make some points.
Here are some questions to follow onto Valandil’s:
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04-03-2018, 01:18 AM | #3 |
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Alcuin - you touch on a couple tangential items I want to talk about separately. I'll start at least one new thread for one of them soon (the Kin-Strife). The other - I might start new, or I might try to find and revive an older thread I've started (the turbulent period from 1974 to 2050).
For now - I'll take on your last question - or at least a slight re-phrasing of it. When did Saruman become a traitor? I think there was an evolution here. Let me see... how do I put this all together:
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04-03-2018, 01:24 AM | #4 |
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BTW - one more thing regarding the Blue Wizards. It seemed from the UT account, like Saruman was placed in a position to watch over them, or look out for them, and I think he resented it. He felt saddled with them. Were these two actually ASSIGNED to the Eastern Lands? Or did Saruman decide that this was a convenient place to drop them off, and get them off his hands? Maybe he contrived a purpose for them there. "Hey... I know what we can have you two do!" Maybe he "got rid of them" in a more sordid fashion? It has always seemed ominous to me that the Elves of Rivendell could not find Radagast before the Fellowship departed... and I've suspected Saruman of foul play here. If so, was he also capable of it earlier, in the case of the Blue Wizards?
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04-03-2018, 03:30 AM | #5 | ||||||
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Remember that Sauron and Saruman were both Maiar of Aulë. They were akin in their origins, in mind and spirit, and quite likely in skills and knowledge. Sauron in his beginning had been the greatest of the Maiar in Aulë’s train, I believe. He and Saruman must have known and understood one another quite well. Gandalf said, “It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove [Sauron] from Dol Guldur,” so Saruman was no slouch, even at the end of the Third Age: he was not some second-rate wizard, however misguided he had become. When he trapped Gandalf in Orthanc, Saruman was wearing a ring and among other things called himself “Saruman Ring-maker.” Not only had he carefully and thoroughly studied Sauron’s arts, he had begun to experiment and practice with them. Elrond’s comment on this was, “It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for good or for ill.” In order to learn how Sauron made the rings and then do it himself, Saruman had to make himself think as Sauron did, something he was capable of doing, made easier because he had known Sauron before Sauron became evil. Saruman was himself powerful, the most powerful of the Istari: Tolkien writes in Unfinished Tales that Quote:
Quibbles aside, I think you’re quite right, Valandil: When Saruman took possession of Isengard, he did so with nefarious purposes. And unlike Gandalf, I do not believe Saruman, whom I agree had likely been often and long a guest of the kings and stewards of Gondor, had forgotten the palant*r of Angrenost. If his actions had not yet made him a traitor, his intentions did: obtaining the Ring for himself was his treasonous purpose. Quote:
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Oromë sent Alatar because Oromë had regularly journeyed in Middle-earth before the First Age. It was on one such journey he discovered the Elves at Cuiviénen. In Peoples of Middle-earth, Tolkien is quoted as saying that Alatar and Pallando (elsewhere called Morinehtar and Rómestámo) were Quote:
But Saruman was “burdened” with Radagast, whom he clearly disdained and disrespected. He did bother concealing from Gandalf his complete contempt for Radagast, and it cost him dearly: “the honest Radagast” asked his friends the Eagles to relay news of the Nazgûl to Gandalf and Saruman at Isengard, and so Gandalf managed to escape. No doubt Saruman understood that Radagast was sent to Middle-earth “merely” because Yavanna was jealous of Aulë, strengthening his indignation; that Eru might have purposes of His own in permitting this apparent concession to Yavanna’s vanity via His regent Manwë does not seem to have occurred to Saruman.I’ve often wondered about that, too. I’d never before considered that Saruman might have “done in” Radagast after his nefarious scheming failed. Once Gandalf escaped, Radagast became very dangerous to Saruman, particularly if he allied with Gandalf, as he seemed apt to do. I’d always figured Radagast was living in either Amsterdam or San Francisco running a head shop, but Valandil, I believe your suspicions might be right. |
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04-03-2018, 05:23 PM | #6 | |
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04-03-2018, 07:28 PM | #7 | |
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Were these Greek gods we were discussing, I would hold out for jealousy as her motive. But these are Valar, and they’re supposed to be “good” through and through. I’ll go with your interpretation of her motives, Eärniel. Treebeard still doesn’t like Gimli, though, and agrees to tolerate his presence in Fangorn Forest only because he wants Legolas to visit. |
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04-09-2018, 09:55 AM | #8 |
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True, but Gimli was walking around with an axe in a period when large parts of Treebeard's beloved trees were being chopped down to fuel the fires of Orthanc. Treebeard didn't really mind Gimli, knowing he was a Dwarf, until the fact that he carried an axe became obvious. It was the axe Treebeard objected to, not the fact that Gimli was a Child of Aulë and thus without a care for the Children of Yavánna. I think we can forgive Treebeard's dislike of Gimli on that part.
Now that you mention it, the Greek Gods appear to not have been an influence in Tolkien's development of the Valar. If Yavanna and Aulë had been like Greek Gods, there was a a large amount of drama and tragedy to be had from the dispute between their Children, just like the Greek play-writers would have loved! |
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