12-08-2003, 12:22 AM | #1 | ||
High King of Númenórë
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Gandalf and the Ring...
I've always found it strange how Gandalf tells Frodo has a great suspicion about the ring and fears touching it. Then he does touch it and isn't affected by it. Then he realizes it is in fact the One Ring and yells at Frodo to not tempt him with it. I'm going to post the two passages below, let's try and make some sense out of them
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Moving on: Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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12-08-2003, 01:00 AM | #2 |
The Insufferable
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Well, I think there seems to be a difference between touching the ring and posessing it.
Gandalf didn't have a problem- or didn't evidence it if he did - simply coming into physical contact with the ring. However, what frodo was offering was to give him the ring- for keeps, so to speak. That was what the temptation was.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 12-08-2003 at 01:08 AM. |
12-08-2003, 01:04 AM | #3 | |
High King of Númenórë
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hmmm, that is a good point you make. However, by touching it, wouldn't it consume his thoughts even only by the touch?
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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12-08-2003, 01:08 AM | #4 |
The Insufferable
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Obiously not. :P
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
12-08-2003, 01:10 AM | #5 |
Hobbit
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I agree with Wayfarer. The difference is in Frodo actually GIVING him the Ring, not just touching it.
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12-08-2003, 01:11 AM | #6 | ||
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It must have been the avatars.
I agree with Wayfarer and Iluvitar. Simply touching the Ring (when he was not completely sure what it was) and taking it to guard or destroy are two entirely different matters. In the first passage, he was testing a suspicion. In the second passage, he was sure it was the One Ring. Now that he knew what it was, he would be tempted by it if it was in his possession. By the way, great thread Dúnedain. Edit: We're all on at the same time!
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 12-08-2003 at 01:12 AM. |
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12-08-2003, 01:19 AM | #7 | |
Hobbit
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Quote:
EDIT: Even Sam who held it for quite a while and had actually used it, was able to give it back to Frodo because of his friendship. Last edited by Ilúvatar : 12-08-2003 at 01:21 AM. |
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12-08-2003, 01:30 AM | #8 | ||
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Yes, it also seemed to effect different races differently too. Men seemed more easily corrupted, and Hobbits seemed most resistent to it. Tom Bombadil, whatever he is, was completely immune to it.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-08-2003, 04:57 AM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
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I think this is referring to what Tolkien meant by the word "ring-bearer". While we might think of this simply as a descriptive (or even figurative) term for whoever is holding or carrying the ring, it's pretty clear throughout that the status of a ring-bearer sets you apart in some literal, objective way.
I'm thinking of Sam,
I wonder if you had to put the ring on at some point to become a "ring-bearer". I also wonder if this ties in with what the ring represents in the story. It's interesting to link this with with Galadriel's voluntary extension of her "ban": only when she had rejected the ring did she revert to her true self and feel able to return to Valinor. |
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12-08-2003, 01:57 PM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by The Gaffer
I wonder if you had to put the ring on at some point to become a "ring-bearer". _____________________________________ You may have hit on a key point. Also, as an aside, would that make Tom Bombadil a ring-bearer? And if so, would that strengthen the case for him being not only a maia, but a vala, since perhaps they, as a higher order then Sauron, might be immune to the ring?
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12-08-2003, 05:51 PM | #11 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i remember gandalf speaking either to bilbo, or about him to frodo, mentioning the importance of bilbo "giving the ring to Frodo" (with a bit of coaxing), as opposed to gandalf taking it by force
which somewhat ties in with a belief i've always had about bombadil... the ring had no power over him because he had no need for it, not necessary because of his personal powers the ring seems to feed off of the bearer's desires, for good or evil in the beginning... but always towards evil in the end... giving it away is kind of like saying, "i don't need you"... while accepting it almost gives it an "in" to the person bearing it... kind of like that old inviting a vampire into your house myth |
12-08-2003, 09:57 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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I don't see a discrepancy. The Ring cannot corrupt instantaneously. Gandalf does not fear contact with it as he performs the fire test, because he knows that he will have no overriding reason to use it right that instant. Later, when Frodo asks him to keep it, he rightly fears the implication of holding such power and being constantly tempted by it. For example, it seems extremely unlikely that he would have been able to forebear using it in his confrontation with Saruman. Gandalf knows that he will soon be in situations where the temptation to use the power (for the greater good, initially) will be too great. A footnote to Letter 246 discusses Gandalf as a Ringlord, and posits that he would eventually be more oppressive than Sauron-picture the 'nanny state' raised to absurd levels.
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12-08-2003, 10:39 PM | #13 | |||
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Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-08-2003, 11:44 PM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I think you would also have to possess it for a significant period of time, like Gollum, Bilbo, Sam, and Frodo. _____________________________________ But a former traveling companion of the fat hobbit maintains he didn't possess the Precious (err, the One Ring) for a significant period of time. Instead, he gave it right back to the nice hobbit.
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12-09-2003, 12:00 AM | #15 | ||
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Sam didn't carry the Ring for very long, but his contribution was definitely significant.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-09-2003, 12:07 AM | #16 |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Sam didn't carry the Ring for very long, but his contribution was definitely significant. __________________________________ Actually, I agree. And I thought you made a really good point with the other three ring bearers. As someone observed in the book (I think about the Council of Elrond) in this thread there have been some "real eye openers" about the ring which expand an appreciation of its nature and characteristics, at least to me.
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12-09-2003, 01:25 AM | #17 |
The Insufferable
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I think you're close, but a bit off.
The term 'ring bearer' doesn't mean someone who simply touched or held the ring, but someone who bore it- someone entrusted with the burden of carrying it. Sam became a ring-bearer because he carried it when frodo was taken. Bombadil and Gandalf just touched it for moments.
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12-09-2003, 01:39 AM | #18 | ||
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Exactly. That's what I was getting at.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-09-2003, 01:51 AM | #19 |
The Insufferable
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*random gratuitous violence*
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
12-09-2003, 07:49 AM | #20 |
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You don't think the knowledge that the Ring was evil had anything to do with it?
EDIT: Eru, that was not what I meant to say. I meant to say, wouldn't the knowledge that the Ring could grant power affect the 'corruption factor'?
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... Last edited by Elf Girl : 12-09-2003 at 05:29 PM. |