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04-11-2006, 07:03 PM | #1 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-11-2006, 07:18 PM | #2 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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*pops in*
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*disappears in a puff of smoke*
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-16-2006, 07:13 PM | #3 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-16-2006, 07:27 PM | #4 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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You can look it up if you like.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-16-2006, 10:26 PM | #5 | ||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Also, the doctrines themselves include violent teachings, and the example of Mohammed and his earliest followers shows what they mean. Unless Muslims turn away from Mohammed, they could not turn away from violence. Many Muslims have, but it seems implausible that all will, permanently. And a growing number is turning back toward violence. Quote:
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The Old Testament doesn't include commands like that. God commanded the Jews, "attack this group," or "attack that group," but he didn't say, "attack all unbelievers!" That's why after one group was attacked, Israel could stop attacking unless God commanded again. Islam is very different. It just gives general orders for jihad against unbelievers, and modern Muslims as well as Muslims throughout history have acted on his words, among other things, of course. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-17-2006, 12:00 AM | #6 | ||||
of the House of Fëanor
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-17-2006 at 12:10 AM. |
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04-17-2006, 02:12 AM | #7 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Lief, my oma lived in holland during the war, and let me assure you, she was more than aware of what was going on in Germany during the war.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
04-17-2006, 07:44 AM | #8 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-17-2006, 11:48 AM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
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Nazism was NOT Christian
Should we (please) split this into a separate thread?
Hitler was not a Christian: Nazism was not based on Christianity. Many Nazis were Christian; or to put it more logically and chronologically, many Christians became Nazis, but Nazi ideology was totally opposed to Christian ideals. The fact that many Nazis proclaimed themselves to be Christians- while trying to explain away the awkward fact that Jesus was Jewish- merely shows the ability of the human mind to hold contradictory viewpoints. |
04-17-2006, 01:11 PM | #10 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Attacking or trying to change one's ideals is simply dealing with the symptoms, not the underlying problems. Post-ww1 germany or the post-civil war deep south are examples of environments that were ripe for idealistic fervor, in one case the nazis and in another the KKK. The middle east during muhammed's time was a similar environment, as is today's environment in that same part of the world. Why do you have a peaceful muslim in california and a violent one in the west bank? It's not because one is more devout than the other. It's not about belief systems at all. It's about the environment that person lives in. And if you want to change that, you work to change that environment, not their way of expressing their discontent.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-17-2006, 02:51 PM | #11 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Hitler, As A Christian...
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
–Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 “National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938. “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs. I guess this means we really need a new thread to debate this "Was Hitler A Christian" hot topic. Time for a thread-split?
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-17-2006 at 02:54 PM. |
04-17-2006, 03:06 PM | #12 | ||||
An enigma in a conundrum
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I know I'm going to be sorry for even trying but some things need to be said.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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04-17-2006, 03:58 PM | #13 | |
Elf Lord
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Recently, of course, we have seen this refocused more sharply for political ends. And that, in the end, is the only meaningful parallel with Hitler: exploiting and inflaming existing prejudices for political gain. If we allow them to get away with it, then the lessons of Nazism have not been learned. Thanks for the compliment, btw, though I cannot claim to be particularly educated in this field. I did once review an excellent little book called "A Brief History of Blasphemy" by Richard Webster, which is a great source for historical context. Bizarrely, it's the baby's favourite book: he always pulls it off the shelf and sits quietly turning over the pages. Must get a photo of that, one with the book's title visible, just in case he starts dating a minister's daughter in later life |
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04-17-2006, 06:58 PM | #14 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Also, the jihad is against pagans not Jews of Christians. Quote:
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04-17-2006, 08:04 PM | #15 | ||||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Historians are more thorough, however. They go through the boring as well as the interesting records. Quote:
Lotesse, about the speeches you posted links to, I have two comments. First, it's logical that Hitler would want to put on a pretense at Christianity, seeing as he would have been aware he was living in a country that was 12/13 of the way Christian. A second point I wanted to raise was that in the second two speeches you pointed out, the 1933 and 1938 speeches, though it was clear he believed in a "God," there was nothing specific that pointed to Christianity. The earlier speech Spock already responded about, and I'd like to see how that discussion plays out before commenting. Quote:
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Parts of Christianity have remained the same throughout history, as I pointed out on the other thread. Islam has always had a strongly warlike tendency. This is just returning. Quote:
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Also, I'm not convinced Judaism has really changed either. The actions of Israel are often of a violent, aggressive manner. Of course there are good reasons for some of this violence. Self-defense is completely legitimate. But some of their actions have been land grabs at other people's expense. While I know most of Israel is secular, there are a lot of religious Jews there too. I'm just not sure, on that one. The Jews have lacked political power, and it could be argued that that's one of the reasons they haven't been violent.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-18-2006 at 01:04 AM. |
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04-17-2006, 09:59 PM | #16 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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At the risk of seeming rude, I'm going to break up one of your sentences to respond to it piece by piece. Quote:
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Also, I am not generalizing to all Jews or all Muslims. Many Muslims are liberal, and many Jews are liberal. There also are fundamentalist Muslims, and there are fundamentalist Jews. Also, I know there have been some changes in the way the religion has been practiced. I know that modern Israel doesn't follow the violent laws God gave ancient Israel, such as stoning or burning people. I assume even fundamentalist Jews don't think that these laws are meant to apply to modern times. The "eye for an eye" exact justice hasn't changed to "love your enemy," though, so far as I've seen. That's what I meant. I wasn't at all clear in that post though, I admit.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-18-2006, 02:13 AM | #17 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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04-18-2006, 02:35 AM | #18 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
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Yes, I'd like to see your response to my oma's first-hand accounts of the war, lief. She has on more than one occasion relayed to me what it was like to live in fear during the war, subsisting on nothing but tulip-bulb soup. Trust me, people were aware of what those nazi-@#$Rers were up to.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
04-18-2006, 10:00 AM | #19 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-18-2006, 10:53 AM | #20 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Well, it becomes a bit more understandable on the part of the Christians in Germany when one considers that the Gestapo were in full power at this time. There would have been an element of fear that I don't think exists in modern society.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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