08-13-2013, 11:01 PM | #1 |
Faithful Gardener
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: I walk here and there, they say...
Posts: 3,603
|
Jewish Dwarves?
Rereading through the Hobbit, my husband drew the correlation between the Dwarves and the Jewish people.
I know Tolkien said that his books were not an allegory, and a lot of these points are pretty stereotypical of Dwarves in general (not just Tolkien-canon). Maybe the originator of the Dwarf-archetype had this in mind, or something. Thoughts?
__________________
In God I trust, I will not be afraid. What can man do to me? Psalm 56:11 "Starbuck, what do you hear?" "Nothin' but the rain, sir!" "Then grab your gun and bring in the cat." Make sure to check out the C.S. Lewis forum. Game threads, movie and book discussions and more! |
08-14-2013, 10:49 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Stereotyping much?
|
08-14-2013, 10:44 PM | #3 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
I just can't picture them foregoing pork products!
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
08-14-2013, 11:17 PM | #4 | |
Faithful Gardener
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: I walk here and there, they say...
Posts: 3,603
|
The only stereotype is the affinity for precious metals and jewels. The rest of them are facts. But stereotypes don't pop up out of nowhere. They may not apply to every single person in a group, but they must be true for at least a portion, or else they would not be associated with that group.
As for the idea of the Dwarves being similar to the Jews, Tolkien himself made the distinction: Quote:
You got me there.
__________________
In God I trust, I will not be afraid. What can man do to me? Psalm 56:11 "Starbuck, what do you hear?" "Nothin' but the rain, sir!" "Then grab your gun and bring in the cat." Make sure to check out the C.S. Lewis forum. Game threads, movie and book discussions and more! |
|
08-15-2013, 04:05 PM | #5 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
I will check will I get to my home library, but I seem to recall rashers of bacon when they assembled at Bag End.
"have no specific country of their own and are scattered across Middle-Earth" Not so much as their homes are somewhat narrow mountain enclaves surrounded by other territories, such as the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills. The 7 clans (or at least 3 of them) are faily well mixed up by the third age, after repeatedly being routed out their hall halls and settling into others and new ones. Recall that at the end of the first age, two clans were significantly dispered from Norod and Beleogost in the Blue Mountains (where they had been long before men came to the Belariand) when the breaking of Thangordrim and Beleriand also smashed their two cities, and that much of their popultation then moved to Moria, and then all three clans were chased out there by the Balrog and minions. But from the first age onwards there were smaller communities left in the Blue Mountains (recall that this is where much of Durin's folk including Thorin's companions were living at the start of the Hobbit). These and no doubt other communities were indpendent, and not under the sovereignty of neighboring men or elves.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 08-19-2013 at 01:34 PM. |
08-16-2013, 09:30 AM | #6 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
|
08-16-2013, 12:41 PM | #7 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Good grief you dont need to try to justify terrible stereotypes (especially with the logic of it must be true if its a stereotype...). Its totally legitimate to make the comparison and say Tolkien may have been influenced by the stereotype (right or wrong. I would also mention the beards and the noses for what its worth...) without defending it as a truth. These books were written during a period of real turbulence for European jews after all so its not far fetched that there would indeed be a parallel. But careful with the whole "those greedy penny pinching Dwarves" approach and then trying to defend it just based on the logic that its such a widely held stereotype. With that same logic are "shiftless lazy" blacks a defendable stereotype as well? Who knows where Tolkien got the inspiration for his spear chucking swarthy Haradrim after all...
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-16-2013 at 12:42 PM. |
08-17-2013, 08:44 AM | #8 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Well, this seems to have opened a few cans of worms!
First, is this a justified comparison? I think so, though I must admit it never occurred to me until I read Tolkien's own comments- and I have been known to be 'sensitive' to such matters. Quote:
Again a correspondence- for the Jews, both for religious reasons and the fact that they were money-lenders- both kings and peasants had motives to bad-mouth people they owed money to. Another aspect is their clannishness: they keep to themselves; not surprising when you're living and travelling among people who are suspicious of you Also, they use their own language among themselves- a language which Tolkien says is meant to resemble Hebrew. A good essay on this, though it sounds rather pc/ multi-culti at the start- do read the whole thing: " "Dwarves are not heroes": antisemitism and the Dwarves in J.R.R. Tolkien's writing." http://www.thefreelibrary.com/%22Dwa.....-a0227196960 The author's contention is that Tolkien became aware of the anti-semitic connotations that could be attached to the Dwarves in 'The Hobbit', and that he consciously revised this in LOTR. An example: Legolas's remarks to Gimli that it were better that the Dwarves didn't find out about the caverns of Helm's deep because their greed would destroy it would represent the stereotypical negative view, as found in 'The Hobbit'; Gimli's protestations that the dwarves love beauty more than gold is fighting back against it.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
||||
08-17-2013, 08:54 AM | #9 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
How about Quote:
Quote:
It's easy!(No, I'm not joking.)
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 08-17-2013 at 08:56 AM. |
|||
08-26-2013, 08:38 AM | #10 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
I don't think Tolkien invented these traits for Dwarves. I think this is how they have been perceived going back to ancient literature. If there are similarities between how Dwarves are described with how some would categorize the Jewish race - those are not of JRRT's contrivance.
Similarly - for those representations of people from other parts of the world (than northern Europe) - he was drawing on perceptions that the ancients would have had. From times when people groups were largely isolated. Except for when one group migrated and invaded another. These works were not written to hold a modern, 20th century viewpoint - but an ancient one.
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
08-30-2013, 01:15 PM | #11 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
It's been a very long time since I posted here but I'd like to say that, as a Jew, I myself am not insulted (yet!) by any of the discussion or comparisons here. And I have a lot of respect for the Dwarvish culture and characteristics in the LOTR. They were good folk, it's not a bad thing to be compared to them.
As has been noted, there are some are historical similarities, others cultural, others externally-generated stereotypes which no people of any race, ethnicity, or religion can fully control others from choosing. There are also examples where the similarities/stereotypes break down. One example is how the Dwarves followed the Eldar, whereas the Jews, of course, preceded the Christians and Muslims. Another is the relative birthrates. Children are uncommon for Dwarves whereas Jewish families are traditionally been large (pork, it's true, is off limits but sex within marriage is more than encouraged ). One similarity that hasn't been mentioned is the shared yearning to return to one's ancestral/aboriginal homeland. It's a strong and shared trait between the Jews and the Dwarves. We call ours Zionism. What do/would the Dwarves call theirs?
__________________
Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. |
08-30-2013, 01:47 PM | #12 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Thrórianism? Oakenshieldism?
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
08-31-2013, 12:27 AM | #13 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
More like "Durinism"... or better yet, "Khazad-dumism"
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
09-01-2013, 02:37 AM | #14 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 09-01-2013 at 02:38 AM. |
||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
LOTR Discussion: Appendix A, parts 2 and 3 | Forkbeard | LOTR Discussion Project | 12 | 12-28-2007 07:10 AM |
Petty Dwarves - Melkor the DIRECT cause? | Tatië | Middle Earth | 5 | 10-12-2004 12:20 PM |
A question about Dwarves and Pictures of handsome dwarves. | afro-elf | Middle Earth | 33 | 04-25-2003 09:48 AM |
What's your opinion of Dwarves? | Bregalad | Middle Earth | 54 | 10-20-2002 11:06 AM |
bmilder | General Messages | 359 | 04-20-2002 02:54 PM |