Legolas and Gimli

[Nurvingiel]

I'm putting this in the Middle-earth forum because I think it has to do with the Hobbit and LOTR.

Question one: Since Legolas is the son of Thranduil (King of the elves of Mirkwood), and he was obviously around in the time of the Hobbit, do you think he had anything to do with the imprisonment of the company of Thorin? Do you get a totally different impression of Elves in the Hobbit as opposed to LOTR?

Question two: Exactly how deep does the friendship between Gimli and Legolas run? I think it parallels Frodo and Sam. What would you describe as the turning point - where their animosity ends and their friendship begins. (This one is LOTR.)

[Radagast The Brown]

second question: (my answer) I think it was smewhere after Moria and after Lothlorien, but before Tol Brandir and Amon Muil (I tried to translate it as bast as I can). I'm not sure.

[Lefty Scaevola]

They did a lot of bonding in the boat on the river.
In Mirlwood Lefolas would appear to be a Junior son. High enough to be an ambaasador orsent on high errantry, but not the heir designate, deputy commander etc. Since he was chosen for the multi racial confernace at Imladirs, it might be supposed that Thranduil in what wisdom he has pick one will less bigotry, or at least more curtesy than others.

[Artanis]

I think Legolas got rid of any hostile feelings against dwarves in Moria. He must have realized that all races were suffering, and he could not have remained untouched by the tragedy of the former dwellers there. Gimli in turn lost his grudge against Elves after his experience of the beauty and bliss of Lorien, and his first meeting with Galadriel, who treated him with honour and respect and revealed knowledge of his language.

[Nurvingiel]

I think you're right Artanis and Leafy Scaevola (type much? )!

What do you think about Legolas' role in the Hobbit Artanis?

[Earniel]

I think they both started to see that the hatred between their races was futile along the road, already before MorÃ*a. I remember Gandalf going into detail on whose fault the strife between the two races was. I believe he blamed them both.

But I guess the big turning point was Lothlorien. Gimli must have finetuned his view on elves because of Galadriel who did not only know dwarfish but seemed to have been on friendly terms with the dwarves of MorÃ*a before their destruction. If that doesn't convince a dwarf I don't know what will. But I also got the impression that Legolas too changed his views because of Galadriel by the respectful way she treated Gimli.

[Ithildin55]

Some interesting and thought provoking comments here.
Here are a few of my thoughts on the subject...

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Question one: Since Legolas is the son of Thranduil (King of the elves of Mirkwood), and he was obviously around in the time of the Hobbit, do you think he had anything to do with the imprisonment of the company of Thorin?

I don’t think Tolkien had invented the character of Legolas when he wrote The Hobbit, so it is only by speculation that he can be placed in those events. When JRRT revised The Hobbit, he made some changes to make it more compatible with LOTR.

“’You were less tender to me,’ said Glôin with a flash of his eyes, as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven-king’s halls.� [FotR, The Council of Elrond.]
While open to interpretation, Glôin’s comment at the Council of Elrond could imply that Legolas was indeed present and involved with imprisoning Thorin’s company.

Do you get a totally different impression of Elves in the Hobbit as opposed to LOTR?

Yes, the Elves of The Hobbit and the Elves of LOTR do seem quite different in some ways.
IIRC, when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, it was, at best, only loosely based on his Middle-earth mythology. Thus the Mirkwood Elves seem to have little in common with the powerful Elves of the Silmarillion.
LOTR was, I believe, written to be consistent with the Silmarillion mythology, yet the Professor kept the Wood-elves of The Hobbit in mind as he wrote as well. Actually, I think the character of Legolas is not inconsistent with the depiction of the Mirkwood Elves. Though he comes across as more refined and restrained, his enthusiasm and curiosity, playful attitudes and quick temper are not out of line with the Wood-elves of The Hobbit.

Question two: Exactly how deep does the friendship between Gimli and Legolas run? I think it parallels Frodo and Sam. What would you describe as the turning point - where their animosity ends and their friendship begins. (This one is LOTR.)

I think the driving force behind the formation of the friendship was that Gandalf asked them to. Their conversation at the doors of Moria:

“’It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned, said Gimli.’
‘I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves, said Legolas.’
‘I have heard both, said Gandalf; and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both. The doors are shut and hidden, and the sooner we find them the better. Night is at hand!’� [A Journey in the Dark, FotR]

During the trip through Moria Gimli shared some of the lore of his people and undoubtedly, Legolas listened. Also, Artanis made a good point about the tragedy of the Dwarves of Moria making an impact on Legolas. Then on the banks of Nimrodel, Legolas shared the lore of his people with the fellowship.

IMO the fact that they believed Gandalf lost made it important to them to make the friendship happen in his memory. Of course, Gimli’s positive reaction to Galadriel was a crucial element in the formation of the friendship.

True, it was after leaving Moria and losing Gandalf that Legolas lost his temper with Gimli over the issue of walking blindfolded through Lórien. Legolas was frustrated and angry with Gimli (they were all tense, weary and grieving at the time) and he protested when Aragorn insisted that he should walk blindfolded through Lórien. He felt he had valid reasons to speak out, however the depth of his loyalty was shown – perhaps more clearly there than anywhere else – in that he submitted to Aragorn’s leadership and allowed himself to be blindfolded for his first trip into Lórien – and never mentioned it again.

After Gimli met Galadriel and Legolas saw that the Dwarf highly regarded her beauty and authority, Legolas began to make earnest efforts to foster a friendship between himself and Gimli. He invited the Dwarf to accompany him when he visited with the Elves of Lórien. "Often he took Gimli with him, and the others wondered at this change."

As the journey continued and they faced hardship and danger together, the bond between them grew stronger, until finally, when Legolas sailed from the shores of Middle-earth, Gimli went with him.

Ithildin55

[Artanis]

Ithildin55, I agree with almost everything you say, except about Glôin's comment at the council of Elrond. I think by 'you' he referred to the Mirkwood Elves, not Legolas particularly.

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
What do you think about Legolas' role in the Hobbit Artanis?

I'm not as familiar with the Hobbit as with LotR, but he must have been present during the imprisonment of Thorin & Co, but not necessarily an active participant in the events. There is also a question whether he took part in the battle of the 5 armies, which I think has been discussed in another thread.

Yes, I find that Legolas' character does not fit straight into the picture of Mirkwood Elves in the Hobbit. His father Thranduil and his people do not show any of the nobility and class that Legolas sometimes reveales. I think of him as a relatively young Elf, who have lived his entire life in Mirkwood, and has not really experienced the world outside the forest before his journey to Imladris. His experiences during the quest with the Fellowship changes him, as it changes all of them.

[Nurvingiel]

Thank you so much for your very detailed answer Ithildin55, and also Artanis!

To build on what you guys have already said about Legolas, maybe his nobility is what made him a good ambassador to Imladris. I think he's more open-minded than others of his kindred.

On Gimli's side, Gloin is a prominent and well-respected dwarf, so that's probably the main reason he was sent, but he is probably more open-minded than other Dwarves as well.

Also, Galadriel is so incredibly old, beautiful, and wise. I think it would hard for anyone to not immidiately respect her, unless they had some serious issues like Boromir did, or if they were evil-hearted.

In the same set of circumstances, I don't think any just elf and dwarf would have become such good friends, or even become friends at all.

You guys have really answered my original question with respect to Legolas and Gimli.

I just thought of another interesting question about Gimli. Let's say about 60 years has passed since Bilbo's quest and Frodo's arrival at Imladris. How old is Gimli? I believe Dwarves can live to be 250, and I also believe that Gimli says that he's not considered young among Dwarves, or something like that. So how old is Gimli? If he was born right after Smaug's demise, wouldn't he be considered a young Dwarf? If he was born before, maybe Gloin had a young son he left behind when he went on Bilbo's quest.

The second scenario seems more likely to me, as long as I'm right about Gimli not being considered young.

[Elf Girl]

I belive Tolkien's impression of Elves changed as the books progressed.

[Ithildin55]

Glad to be of assistance.

from Appendix A, LOTR

Gimli
Born TA 2879 –3141 (Fourth Age 120)
Age at time he sailed West – 262 years
Age at end of War of the Ring – 142 years
Most Dwarves lived about 250- 260 years at most.
Smaug was destroyed in TA 2941.

77 years passed from the time Bilbo found the Ring until Frodo arrived at Imladris.

Indeed, Artanis, Glôin's statement is open to personal interpretation.

[azalea]

So does that mean that Gimli was or was not born at the time of The Battle of Five Armies?

[Ithildin55]

LOL Azalea, my mind must have been more numb than yours - I used a calculator and still got something wrong...

The overlap between the end of the War of the Ring and the actual beginning ot the Fourth Age is what got me, I think. (Note to self - never try to do math late at night... )

Anyway...
Gimli would have been 62 at the time of the Battle of Five Armies.

Gimli's age at the end of the War of the Ring should read 140, not 142. It think (hope) the others are right.

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks again Ithildin55! Your math matches up with my math, given the 2 year correction. This means he was alive at the time of the Battle of Five Armies.

(Note to self - never try to do math late at night... )

Tell that to university students eh Ithildin!

[FattyBulger]

1st Question: If Legolas was there when Thorin and co. were imprisoned, I don't think Gimli or his dad Gloin would keep quiet about it at the council at Rivendel because of course Gloin was one of Thorin's party

[Ithildin55]

Originally posted by FattyBulger
1st Question: If Legolas was there when Thorin and co. were imprisoned, I don't think Gimli or his dad Gloin would keep quiet about it at the council at Rivendel because of course Gloin was one of Thorin's party

But then, Glôin didn't keep quiet!

[Lalaith]

Tolkien definitely knew the character of Legolas before he wrote the Hobbit, but maybe he decided that he should not play a role in this story.
Tolkien invented the original character of Legolas in his very first years of creating Middle-earth. He started writing The Book of Lost Tales very early and there, Legolas does already exist. Well, not in the shape we know him, but he was there. Originally he was an elf from Gondolin who could see better than any other elf.

Another thing. I was really shocked when I read a comment by a german Tolkien translator about Legolas. He said that Legolas was the weakest character of the fellowship. He also said that there were so many better elves than Legolas and why Tolkien put such a weak character with such a lack of abilities into the fellowship.
I didn't understand what the translator ment. There were not that many better elves and who could be better than the son of the king?

[BeardofPants]

I'm pretty sure that that isn't the same Legolas. Tolkien had a habit of recycling names.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Legolas of Gondolin in BoLT, is someone else, and lord of a house (guild) of warriors there, almost certainly Noldorin rather than Sindarin (because at the time he was written, JRRT had Gondolin as all Noldor & not 60% Sindar population, as later written). If JRRT had got around to rewriting the Fall of Gondolin for the SIL, He most possibly written Legolas (of Gondolin) as being a Sinda of the northern Mithrim variety, or even possibly of the Falathrim variety, of a local (to Nevrast) noble family.
Oraphir, Thranduil, & Legolas of Mirkwood come from the Doriathin Sindar, who looked down upon the northern Sindar of Hithlum, Dorthonian, and Nevrast.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The only two names of the princes of the warrior houses of Gondolin from BoLT that survived into the SIL were Ecthelion and Glorfindal (and the predecessor of the Maeglin & Tuor characters also have houses of warriors in BoLt). These two did because they are mention in the Niarneth battle, which JRRT had partly revised for the SIL, but the others (13 total was it?) were only named in the fall of Gondolin, which JRRT had not rewritten.