12-29-2003, 12:25 PM | #1 | |
The Tall
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Good thing that Celegorm was there!!
From the Published Silmarillion
Quote:
I know that the population of Nargothrond was the biggest of any Ñoldorian kingdom but still, what hope did they have? Good thing that Celegorm and Curufin were there.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-29-2003, 01:40 PM | #2 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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maybe... though the ulimate fate of the people of nargothrond may have been even worse than a valiant final attack upon angband would have been at that time
i always thought the elves would have been better served with a true united assault on angband immediately after dagor-nuir-giliath... something i think fëanor would have insisted upon had he survived... though it is highly unlikely that he would have been able to get many behind him on the attempt
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12-29-2003, 01:59 PM | #3 |
AngAdan
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Disagree completely, Maedhros.
Finrod would not comtemplate an insane assualt on Amgband, nor is there any suggestion that he would, but the forces of his Kingdom would have been very useful to take back the Minas Tirith and the pass of Sirion, thus allowing a safe passage of a covert expedition of Beren, Luthian, and support toward Angband, similat to the one they did use, but stronger, less risky, and better supported. If Luthian and Huan could take Minas Tirith but sorcery and pesronal power, and organized expedition wisely designed could do so, without loss of Finrod and his best nobles. Rhis would have also tremdnous strtegic advantages of holding the pass, blocking Morgoths agents from using it, and renewed communication with Hithlum. Note than Morgoth was again in a rebuliding period, having had his armies 3 years ealier again smashed, when he attacked Hithlum from the East and North and "Hurin...drov the orcs with heavy slaughter from the Ered Wethrin and pursued themthat far across the sands of Anfauglith" and in the north "..the orc broke and fled, and the Eldar had the victory, and their horsed archers pursued them even into the Iron Mountains". This following the sluahter of the 4th battle and then the debacle in north Brethil. Sauron was on his own in Minas Tirith, with little support available from Angband , and no prospect of a major expedition to again take Minas Tirith if it fell to Finrod. All in all a tremdous strnghtening of the Edalrin position would have resulted during the build up toward the 5th battle. Also without the grivences against Celegom and Curufin, Nargothrond would have participated in the fith battle to freat effect in a near run battle, to much greater effect than being uselessly slaugter when alone later (and likely still being around at such later time, with allies). AND Gwindor would have been with Nargotrhond's host Likely near the pass of Sirion on in Dorthonian, or in any case not conveniently palce to see the torture of Gelmir, and precipitate a premature advance. I think without Curufin and Celgorn at Nargothrond the Eldarin & Edain kingdoms would have lasted at least a whole another generation fo of orc growing and war with Morgoth. You need to veiw these individual incidents in the contest of the whole.
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12-29-2003, 02:06 PM | #4 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Re: Good thing that Celegorm was there!!
Quote:
On a side note: Celegorm and Curufin was also partly responsible for Doriath's absence from the battle. If they had restrained themselves Thingol may have gone to war. And the joined forces of Doriath + Nargothrond could have made a difference, no?
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-29-2003 at 02:08 PM. |
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12-29-2003, 02:20 PM | #5 |
AngAdan
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Yep, Doriath would have added much strength, but it is very doubtful they would have gone in with the Union Maedhros, even with the additiol insults of C & C's behavior toward Luthian.
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12-29-2003, 04:35 PM | #6 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
2. And still, there was the question of obtaining the Silmaril from Morgoth. Having hypotetically Minas Tirith is good and dandy but the objective is to have the Silmaril. With an army, there is almost zero chance that Beren and Lúthien would go to Angband in secret to retrieve it. My friend has completely forgotten about the quest to obtain the Silmaril. 3. While it is true that Morgoth's armies were weaker, that is also true of that of the Eldar, but I would bet that Morgoth's armies would replenish their numbers quicker than that of the Eldar. 4. Imagine this, that somehow the armies of Nargothrond would have prevailed and obtained the Silmaril, what would have prevented the Sons of Fëanor from attacking such a host themselves in order to regain the Silmaril. If that would have happened, the possibility of a future Ñoldorian alliance would be almost zero. Again, good thing that Celegorm and Curufin were there. Can you imagine the sons of Fëanor laying waste to Nargothrond for the Silmaril.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-29-2003, 04:55 PM | #7 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Dang - I have misread your first post, I thought you were talking about the Nirnaeth. I think I'll keep quiet for a while.
*takes frying pan from Falagar and smacks head*
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12-29-2003, 04:56 PM | #8 | |
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12-29-2003, 05:04 PM | #9 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-29-2003, 05:11 PM | #10 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I should have smacked him too - to get him out of his Finrod-loving mode.
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12-29-2003, 05:13 PM | #11 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-29-2003 at 05:37 PM. |
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12-29-2003, 06:55 PM | #12 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-29-2003, 07:06 PM | #13 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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12-29-2003, 07:08 PM | #14 |
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*smack*!
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12-30-2003, 05:15 PM | #15 |
The Tall
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One could consider too that if it wasn't for Celegorm and Curufin, our estemeed Finrod Felagund would have died in another way, probably later.
I wonder if a couple of more years of living for FF would have been a good thing.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
01-06-2004, 12:46 PM | #16 |
Deus Ex Machina
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Even after reading your arguments in favor of Celegorm and Curufin I still fail to see how their meddling in Nargothrond caused any good at all. They caused the people of Nargothrond to turn against Finrod, prompting him to go off on what was basically a suicide mission, which if he had gained the necessary support could have been succesful. Furthermore, they delayed Luthien's attempt to rescue Beren and thus Finrod. If they hadn't delayed her and concealed the news that Finrod and Beren had been captured then it might have been possible for Luthien and Orodreth to rescue more of the twelve who set out alive.
Their actions did nothing but to stir up trouble and renew hostilities between the different Elven nations. If they had just kept their mouths shut then the elves would have more united in later wars, and the quest of the silmaril would have been a great deal less romantic but probably would have been less tragic as well. All this is not to say that your arguments are bad, they're actually quite good considering the topic. But I really do not like Celegorm or Curufin much and I cannot find their actions to be good no matter how hard I look.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
01-06-2004, 04:37 PM | #17 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
Remember that if not for Celegorm and Curufin, Huan would not have help her the same way. Subterfuge was the only way to get the silmaril, not an open war.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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01-06-2004, 04:40 PM | #18 |
The Tall
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Another point to consider is the Oath. What if by some coincidence, the hosts of Nargothrond were able to regain the Silmaril. Who is to say that the Fëanorians would found out and ask for the Silmaril to them. Can you imagine such a war, Nargothrond vs the 7 sons of Fëanor?
Now that would be divisive, and FF would not stand a chance against his cousin Maitimo.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
01-06-2004, 04:58 PM | #19 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-06-2004, 05:00 PM | #20 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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