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#1 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Lonely Mountain
Posts: 161
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Evil without Melkor
If Melkor had not been evil, would evil have existed in Tolkien's world? Melkor (or one of his agents) was at the heart of just about every bad thing in history, but it also seemed that weakness, jealousy, and other flaws were present independent of him. What do you think?
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"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs |
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#2 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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If melkor had not turned evil, then evil would not have existed in Ea unless or until someone else spontaneously turned evil.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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#3 | |
High King of Númenórë
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Númenórë <--United States of America
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen ![]() |
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#4 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
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Ilúvatar gave all his creations free will, so it was his own choice to become evil. Eru probably knew about it, but I think he did not stop it because then he would have to remove Melkor's free will (or lock him up).
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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#5 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 123
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the existence of evil is inevitable. Good and evil are important for the maintenance of balance in any world. Otherwise how can you define good if there's no evil. So I believe that if hadn't turned evil someone else would.
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#6 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Lonely Mountain
Posts: 161
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I tend to agree with Aden. Jealousy and pride seem prevalent in some of the Eldar. Greed and lust for power exist in Men. Melkor took advantage of these flaws to serve his purposes, but even without him, I think they would have led to evil.
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"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs |
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#7 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The depths of Thangorodrim
Posts: 145
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![]() Evil is Melkor. No one else is powerful enough to do it.
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GOD SENT ME TO PISS THE WORLD OFF!!!!!!!!!! |
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#8 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden
Posts: 9,481
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There is always someone who wants to "do his own thing".
But the thought Iluvatar had of ME was that everyone should help in the making of it, thus no one could "be a loner" because that would have been evil in the eyes of Iluvatar. |
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#9 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Lonely Mountain
Posts: 161
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![]() Quote:
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"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs |
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#10 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
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'Evil' and 'Good' are like the poles of a magnet. They define opposites. No matter how small you cut a magnet, it will always have opposite poles, North and South. Likewise, no matter how you try to eliminate Evil, there will always be someone who is less Good than other people, defining the opposite of Good, therefore, Evil.
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#11 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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#12 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Quote:
Last edited by Grey_Wolf : 01-15-2004 at 05:28 AM. |
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#13 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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#14 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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i think there is always the assumption that a creator is "good" and one of his creations becomes "evil"... i have always imagined a creator to be a more "neutral"
from the music of the ainur: Quote:
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though i doubt this was tolkien's intention... i almost like to think that iluvatar's final statement above is a prophecy that one day even melkor will realize his mistakes and see the path to true glory... and this will be a fulfillment of the purpose of arda, the moral development of a truely free soul that is not just a part of the creator, but the sum of all the creator's parts Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#15 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 01-15-2004 at 11:58 AM. |
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#16 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,215
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Originally posted by Ruinel
" 'Evil' and 'Good' are like the poles of a magnet. They define opposites. No matter how small you cut a magnet, it will always have opposite poles, North and South. Likewise, no matter how you try to eliminate Evil, there will always be someone who is less Good than other people, defining the opposite of Good, therefore, Evil." _______________________________ I think the the above suggestion, and Aden's "Good and evil are important for the maintenance of balance in any world. Otherwise how can you define good if there's no evil." _______________________________ are a bit too Manichaean for Tolkien's taste or intent. I believe JRRT and C.S. Lewis, as Christians, saw evil as an absence of good, not a coequal pole. For example, in "Letters" # 183: Quote:
"i think there is always the assumption that a creator is "good" and one of his creations becomes "evil"... i have always imagined a creator to be a more "neutral" ____________________________________ I see more Iluvatar permitting free will evil acts but always acting so as to eventually turn them into an eventual good result while still allowing free will and a short to medium run evil result of free will. Speculatively, a Sauron victory in the War of the Ring might have resulted in a long period of darkness in Middle-earth but eventual "rescue" of Middle-earth. (Gandalf to Denethor: "And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair and flower again in days to come)." On another point, the Ainur seem to exhibit considerable free will and fallibility. Witness their (probable) error in bringing the Elder to Aman.
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Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 01-15-2004 at 01:06 PM. |
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#17 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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But of course, it's been well established that what an author says doesn't matter in relation to his world, so that doesn't mean anything.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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#18 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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you are absolutely correct tuor... tolkien's christian beliefs are apparent throughout his work... and he would probably agree with your assessments
but like all the best creation mythologies... including that of the bible or the rig veda... it is interesting to philosophize upon angles that the author(s) might not have intended to get across yes it does matter very much wayfarer... there are just two ways to look at a great myth... what did the author intend to say? or, what meaning did you get from the book? sometimes these things are the same and sometimes they are not... and different people can pick up different meanings... which is the definition of a truly timeless story
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#19 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
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Originally posted by brownjenkins
yes it does matter very much wayfarer... there are just two ways to look at a great myth... what did the author intend to say? or, what meaning did you get from the book? sometimes these things are the same and sometimes they are not... and different people can pick up different meanings... which is the definition of a truly timeless story _________________________________ Yes. I think an author's underlying beliefs and retrospective views of a work should be given some consideration, as should a reader's interpretation. By the by, that may have been part of Tolkien's intention in setting Middle-earth in a clearly pre-Christian world, to not make it as doctrinaire and more open to interpretation then, for example, C. S. Lewis's Narnia is. Wayfarer makes some good points, but I think sometimes carries a point to extremes, not unlike JerseyDevil's movie opinions. As C.S. Lewis once observed to Tolkien: " 'Distinguo, Tollers! Distinguo!' as the other man, similarly wreathed in pipe smoke, made too sweeping an assumption." ![]()
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Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! |
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#20 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
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