If Tolkien had not written his epic, where would Fantasy have gone?

LutraMage · 09-13-2003, 03:46 PM

This is actually not just about a world without Tolkien, but rather I wanted to know what Mooters think makes Middle Earth so powerful and the LoTRs such a classic. What is it about Tolkien's writings that clearly leads us all to believe it is so much better than the thousands of other books in the Fantasy genre which followed? Are they so poor by comparison? What was different? Or, looking at it from a different perspective (and hence the title to this thread) would Fantasy novels have developed differently in a world without Tolkien?

What do you think?

Ruinel · 09-14-2003, 12:43 AM

Where would fantasy fiction have gone? To hell in a handbasket.

What is different about Tolkien's books as opposed to the fantasy literature? o.O That's like saying... what's the difference between a diamond and a cubic zirconia.

Wayfarer · 09-14-2003, 02:32 AM

Actually, I'm betting it would have died off decades ago. Not that that would nescessarily be a bad thing, since most modern fantasy is fairly awful.

Lefty Scaevola · 09-14-2003, 12:37 PM

I suspect that dark fantasy, such as by Michael Moorcock, would have domoinated.

LutraMage · 09-14-2003, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
What is different about Tolkien's books as opposed to the fantasy literature? o.O That's like saying... what's the difference between a diamond and a cubic zirconia.

Alright Ruinel, good point, well made

but why is Tolkien a diamond? This is the Entmoot, let's have some academic debate here backed up with sound examples.

Ruinel · 09-14-2003, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LutraMage
... why is Tolkien a diamond?

If you have to ask....

LutraMage · 09-18-2003, 04:59 PM

Yep, I have to ask because I want to know why others think Tolkien is the Master - I know why I think he is!

Attalus · 09-18-2003, 07:08 PM

I think Tolkien's world is better, because it is literate, internally consistent, well-written and intensely creative, and was written by someone who believed what he was doing was important, and communicated that feeling to the reader. I just completed Greg Wright's Tolkien In Perspective where he makes these points, more or less, and adds that the intensely Christian nature of Tolkien's mythology appeals to the post-Christian world of today for the same reasons that the Middle Ages in Europe appeal. They were very Christian, too. People who like them and the Tolkien corpus are said to be responding to their Christian beauty, liking the flowers of a tree without understanding the scaley bark and twisted roots that produced them.

Keith K · 09-18-2003, 11:37 PM

I have read some early modern fantasy that predates Tolkien such as The Well at the Worlds End, and The Worm Oroborous. While they were ok, they were not even close to the scale of Tolkien's epic. For me, it is the richness of the underlying material, the deep history that is embedded within the story. When I first read the Trilogy I remember how the allusions to the previous ages evoked a mystery that aroused my imagination. Oh! How I wanted to know about Morgoth and Feanor and Gondolin and the other stories alluded to in the appendices. I had to wait over 15 years before the Silmirillion was finally published and I was able to delve into the earlier histories. I can still remember how eagerly I tore into that book.
But for me that was the appeal (and the hook) to Tolkien's work...the way he was able to get me thinking about things that really didn't have much apparent connection to the story he was actually telling.

Durin1 · 09-19-2003, 10:32 AM

There is simply no other fantasy/mythology out there with the same depth as Tolkien's work. It would have been and remained pretty awful

durin's bane · 09-20-2003, 03:18 PM

Without Tolkien, fantasy would've tumbled down. He proved that fantasy isn't just about slaying dragons and collecting treasures to save the world; Tolkien exposed the more human side of fantasy. He made the characters have more problems and emotions than other fantasy characters. The plot was unique, and he actually did things with his world. He made separate books that tell of its history. Tolkien makes sure the reader leaves no stone unturned. Other fantasy writers make sequels to their works; and often times, they bring in new plot holes, like how the villain from the previous book has a son in the next one, but how can he when he was trying to capture the princess so he could steal her magical-whatever so he could get himself a son, when he failed? Read Deltora Quest by Emily Rodda; you'll see what I mean.

Tolkien is the godfather of fantasy novels. No one else can compare to him. He gave us a world where we can actually be part of; a world where we can actually live in together. Because of this, Tolkien is the master.

Sheeana · 09-20-2003, 04:42 PM

Well, you know, what Tolkien pulled off wasn't exactly pulled out of mid-air. His works were based on previous mythologies, and stories, so it is entirely possible that someone else could have come up with something similar.

durin's bane · 09-23-2003, 06:39 PM

Well, yeah. I mean, if you look at the opera, The Ring, it's very similar to The Lord of the Rings. But what makes it great is that is was richer than the works that helped make it.

(hey I'm posting something serious for once!)

Sheeana · 09-23-2003, 11:59 PM

Well, they're both similar in that they're epics, and have "ring" in the title...

LutraMage · 09-25-2003, 05:41 PM

Thanks Attalus for really getting the ball rolling, and Keith K, Durin1 and durin's bane for keeping the pot stirring - and, of course, Sheeana for adding her own brand of spice!

I agree very much with the comments made. Tolkien took years to write his Middle Earth tales (and didn't manage to finish in his life time). It was this attention to detail, the willingness to devote a lifetime to the work rather than hurriedly churning out 24 (money spinning) sequals one after the other (which seems to be the modern staple of science fiction) which made Tolkien's writting so much more 'real', more enchanting.

Tolkien grew up in a pre-WWII age where marketing, spin and hype were virtually unheard of, and where authors rarely made a fortune for writing their novels. So he wrote his masterpiece for the love of the story rather than the commerical value, and this shines through. His story is rich and lavish rather than designed and pitched at a particular 'niche market'. I wonder if in our modern, have-it-now, throwaway world any other writter will ever devote so much time to a novel?

Insidious Rex · 09-25-2003, 06:49 PM

well I think its fairly safe to say that pretty much all MODERN fantasy kind of recieved its initial enertia from Tolkien's work. In fact even games and other mediums came directly or indirectly from Tolkien inspired fantasy thinking. I grew up with a mindset of what fantasy was and it wasnt until I was adult really that I became aware hey this all came from Tolkien. I thought this was just the way it WAS.

BUT... fantasy has been around a long time people. Wouldnt you consider Homer to be an epic fantasy author? and Id say that was significantly before Tolkiens time. And think of the influence of the Illiad and the Odyssey not to mention Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur and many other classic fantasy tales (yes Arthurian tales may have been based on hazy truth but you get where Im going). So I think what Tolkien did was to wrest the fantasy genre which was essentially underground in the early 20th century and shine such a brilliant bright light on it that it served as a beacon for others to follow the same path. and it became simply "the way" essentially after a while.

Ruinel · 09-25-2003, 10:48 PM

IR is correct.

There were many tales told throughout the ages. Tolkien breathed life into a new world.

There was a comment about the "intensely Christian nature" of Tolkien's work. I don't see the Christ thing at all.

Furthermore, Tolkien's works appeal to more than just Christians.

Sheeana · 09-25-2003, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
BUT... fantasy has been around a long time people.

Yup, that's my point exactly. God knows, he swiped a lot of stuff from Beowulf, and I'd say that was considered to be epic fantasy type stuff.

The Gaffer · 09-29-2003, 05:14 AM

This is an interesting discussion; here's the Gaffer's two taters worth.

The power of LOTR is, as othes have said, rooted in the depth of the world he created. There are entire languages, cultures and histories within histories to which the characters constantly refer. As a result, you have a powerful sense of "place".

On top of this, he works some truly profound themes, from Frodo's personal apotheosis to Saruman's industrial dystopia. These are understated throughout, and all the more resonant for it.

To answer the question, it's clear that LOTR inspired a lot of fantasy fiction, but I've never read one which can hold a candle to the original. Somebody must be buying them, but surely not because people are looking for LOTR-style works or else they, like me, would've given up long ago. That's why I don't think the genre would be any worse without LOTR: because it's bad enough already.

The fantasy genre would exist without LOTR, but would be minus its best example. I fear you may be right, in that no such book will be published again.

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
People who like them and the Tolkien corpus are said to be responding to their Christian beauty, liking the flowers of a tree without understanding the scaley bark and twisted roots that produced them.

Can't they just be responding to their beauty?

LutraMage · 10-11-2003, 05:08 PM

Okay, so we're all agreed that JRR is the best (surprise, surprise) but does anyone think that he will ever be surpassed? That is, will there ever be another author who can put so much into their tale without it just becoming a pale imitation of the master?

09-13-2003, 03:46 PM	#1
LutraMage Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling... Posts: 330	If Tolkien had not written his epic, where would Fantasy have gone? This is actually not just about a world without Tolkien, but rather I wanted to know what Mooters think makes Middle Earth so powerful and the LoTRs such a classic. What is it about Tolkien's writings that clearly leads us all to believe it is so much better than the thousands of other books in the Fantasy genre which followed? Are they so poor by comparison? What was different? Or, looking at it from a different perspective (and hence the title to this thread) would Fantasy novels have developed differently in a world without Tolkien? What do you think? Last edited by LutraMage : 09-13-2003 at 05:04 PM.

09-14-2003, 02:32 AM	#3
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Actually, I'm betting it would have died off decades ago. Not that that would nescessarily be a bad thing, since most modern fantasy is fairly awful. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

09-18-2003, 07:08 PM	#8
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I think Tolkien's world is better, because it is literate, internally consistent, well-written and intensely creative, and was written by someone who believed what he was doing was important, and communicated that feeling to the reader. I just completed Greg Wright's Tolkien In Perspective where he makes these points, more or less, and adds that the intensely Christian nature of Tolkien's mythology appeals to the post-Christian world of today for the same reasons that the Middle Ages in Europe appeal. They were very Christian, too. People who like them and the Tolkien corpus are said to be responding to their Christian beauty, liking the flowers of a tree without understanding the scaley bark and twisted roots that produced them. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 09-18-2003 at 07:10 PM.

09-19-2003, 10:32 AM	#10
Durin1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 221	There is simply no other fantasy/mythology out there with the same depth as Tolkien's work. It would have been and remained pretty awful __________________ Durin the Sleepless!

09-20-2003, 03:18 PM	#11
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	Without Tolkien, fantasy would've tumbled down. He proved that fantasy isn't just about slaying dragons and collecting treasures to save the world; Tolkien exposed the more human side of fantasy. He made the characters have more problems and emotions than other fantasy characters. The plot was unique, and he actually did things with his world. He made separate books that tell of its history. Tolkien makes sure the reader leaves no stone unturned. Other fantasy writers make sequels to their works; and often times, they bring in new plot holes, like how the villain from the previous book has a son in the next one, but how can he when he was trying to capture the princess so he could steal her magical-whatever so he could get himself a son, when he failed? Read Deltora Quest by Emily Rodda; you'll see what I mean. Tolkien is the godfather of fantasy novels. No one else can compare to him. He gave us a world where we can actually be part of; a world where we can actually live in together. Because of this, Tolkien is the master. __________________ Yada, yada, yada

09-14-2003, 12:43 AM	#2
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	Where would fantasy fiction have gone? To hell in a handbasket. What is different about Tolkien's books as opposed to the fantasy literature? o.O That's like saying... what's the difference between a diamond and a cubic zirconia.

09-14-2003, 12:37 PM	#4
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	I suspect that dark fantasy, such as by Michael Moorcock, would have domoinated.

09-18-2003, 04:59 PM	#7
LutraMage Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling... Posts: 330	Yep, I have to ask because I want to know why others think Tolkien is the Master - I know why I think he is!

09-18-2003, 11:37 PM	#9
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	I have read some early modern fantasy that predates Tolkien such as The Well at the Worlds End, and The Worm Oroborous. While they were ok, they were not even close to the scale of Tolkien's epic. For me, it is the richness of the underlying material, the deep history that is embedded within the story. When I first read the Trilogy I remember how the allusions to the previous ages evoked a mystery that aroused my imagination. Oh! How I wanted to know about Morgoth and Feanor and Gondolin and the other stories alluded to in the appendices. I had to wait over 15 years before the Silmirillion was finally published and I was able to delve into the earlier histories. I can still remember how eagerly I tore into that book. But for me that was the appeal (and the hook) to Tolkien's work...the way he was able to get me thinking about things that really didn't have much apparent connection to the story he was actually telling.

09-20-2003, 04:42 PM	#12
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	Well, you know, what Tolkien pulled off wasn't exactly pulled out of mid-air. His works were based on previous mythologies, and stories, so it is entirely possible that someone else could have come up with something similar.

09-23-2003, 06:39 PM	#13
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	Well, yeah. I mean, if you look at the opera, The Ring, it's very similar to The Lord of the Rings. But what makes it great is that is was richer than the works that helped make it. (hey I'm posting something serious for once!) __________________ Yada, yada, yada

09-23-2003, 11:59 PM	#14
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	Well, they're both similar in that they're epics, and have "ring" in the title...

09-25-2003, 05:41 PM	#15
LutraMage Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling... Posts: 330	Thanks Attalus for really getting the ball rolling, and Keith K, Durin1 and durin's bane for keeping the pot stirring - and, of course, Sheeana for adding her own brand of spice! I agree very much with the comments made. Tolkien took years to write his Middle Earth tales (and didn't manage to finish in his life time). It was this attention to detail, the willingness to devote a lifetime to the work rather than hurriedly churning out 24 (money spinning) sequals one after the other (which seems to be the modern staple of science fiction) which made Tolkien's writting so much more 'real', more enchanting. Tolkien grew up in a pre-WWII age where marketing, spin and hype were virtually unheard of, and where authors rarely made a fortune for writing their novels. So he wrote his masterpiece for the love of the story rather than the commerical value, and this shines through. His story is rich and lavish rather than designed and pitched at a particular 'niche market'. I wonder if in our modern, have-it-now, throwaway world any other writter will ever devote so much time to a novel? Last edited by LutraMage : 09-25-2003 at 05:44 PM.

09-25-2003, 06:49 PM	#16
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	well I think its fairly safe to say that pretty much all MODERN fantasy kind of recieved its initial enertia from Tolkien's work. In fact even games and other mediums came directly or indirectly from Tolkien inspired fantasy thinking. I grew up with a mindset of what fantasy was and it wasnt until I was adult really that I became aware hey this all came from Tolkien. I thought this was just the way it WAS. BUT... fantasy has been around a long time people. Wouldnt you consider Homer to be an epic fantasy author? and Id say that was significantly before Tolkiens time. And think of the influence of the Illiad and the Odyssey not to mention Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur and many other classic fantasy tales (yes Arthurian tales may have been based on hazy truth but you get where Im going). So I think what Tolkien did was to wrest the fantasy genre which was essentially underground in the early 20th century and shine such a brilliant bright light on it that it served as a beacon for others to follow the same path. and it became simply "the way" essentially after a while. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

09-25-2003, 10:48 PM	#17
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	IR is correct. There were many tales told throughout the ages. Tolkien breathed life into a new world. There was a comment about the "intensely Christian nature" of Tolkien's work. I don't see the Christ thing at all. Furthermore, Tolkien's works appeal to more than just Christians.

10-11-2003, 05:08 PM	#20
LutraMage Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling... Posts: 330	Okay, so we're all agreed that JRR is the best (surprise, surprise) but does anyone think that he will ever be surpassed? That is, will there ever be another author who can put so much into their tale without it just becoming a pale imitation of the master? __________________ "Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so, with Pity." "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." "Very well,' he answered aloud, lowering his sword. 'But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him."

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