05-18-2006, 12:55 PM | #1 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Sauron's trips to Sammath Naur
Sam and Frodo saw Sauron’s road from Barad-dûr to Sammath Naur
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If it was the case, then Shagrat's words: "The Eye is busy elsewhere" may have simply meant that Sauron (referred to as "the Eye" by the Orcs) was away from Barad Dur. So let us see. There is about 50 miles between Barad-Dur and Orodruin: at least half a day hard riding. I don't think Sauron used a Fell Beast, because why then did he need a road maintained in order? So, Darkness started to pour out of Mordor on March 9. Sauron was probably at Sammath Naur, and also made a signal for Morgul host to leave (It seems he loved dramatic effects: why couldn't he simply set the hour in advance or sent a nazgul?). Sauron must have stayed there for several days: till March 13. Proof? The nazgul normally were able to send instant messages to Sauron. But they were unable to do so for a good while, most likely due to Sauron's absence. Quote:
Likely, when he returned to Barad-Dur, he rushed to his Palantir and kept all his attention on Minas Tirith and Denethor and on the Pelennor, disregarding small matters, like a capture of a spy at Ungol. But his being away from Mt. Doom proved perilous, as his Darkness failed on the morning of the Pelennor Battle (March 15). I think, poor Sau hurried immediately to Orodruin again, to make new portion of smoke, and thus missed the approach of Aragorn up Anduin. Sauron simply had too much on his hands, poor megalomaniac, never trusting his underlings enough... |
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05-19-2006, 09:45 AM | #2 | |||||
Spaceman Spiff
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Another great thread from Gordis.
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Do you hear that? |
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05-19-2006, 12:26 PM | #3 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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It seems, that until Frodo was captured, both the nazgul and Sauron were troubled only about some spies, not hobbits: Quote:
Sauron, upon receiving the news, immediately sent a message to Cirith Ungol. (Interesting -how? Telegraph, perhaps ). This message is given: Quote:
Neither did the nazgul send anyone in pursuit until it was almost too late. I guess, the nazgul gave any intruders, except the short-legged exhausted hobbits , time enough to pass Cirith Ungol safely, before they raised an alarm. The hobbits were too slow on the stairs, slower then the nazgul reckoned them to be. That was a slight miscalculation, which almost proved fatal. But it is not as simple as that, because Sauron also sent Shagrat additional orders: Quote:
But why did he make such a connection? I don't know. Perhaps he suspected any anomaly, like an unheard-of spy on the Stairs to be connected with the Ring-business? Or he suspected only those events which caused his nazgul to act strange to be connected with the Ring? As for the nazgul, I think their keeping quiet about the passage of the spies by their fortress for several days was a last straw that finally broke Sauron's trust. He started to sum up things: their long search for the Ring in the Vales, their failure in the Shire, and at the Weathertop, and at the Ford, their inability to locate hobbits with the Ring later... Then, it seems, after capturing Frodo, the orcs were too busy fighting over his mithril shirt to send a messenger to Barad-Dur. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 05-19-2006 at 12:31 PM. |
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05-19-2006, 01:43 PM | #4 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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05-19-2006, 03:12 PM | #5 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Oh, yes, I know this quote. It describes the nazgul actions if they faced Frodo wielding the Ring. Sauron had primary control of their wills, while Frodo would only have some secondary control.
And yes, Sauron was able to control the nazgul when he used their Rings to control them. But he couldn't do that all the time. His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor, control orcs, control Orodruin eruptions, control the nazgul, plan the battles, run Mordor etc. etc. He was alone to do all that, so once he was set on one thing, he had to let slip the others. And the nazgul must have had a pretty good idea when trey were being watched and when not. A quote is a good thing, but look at the facts. Why were the orcs ordered to report to Barad-Dur ONLY, and not to Minas Morgul? |
05-19-2006, 04:24 PM | #6 | ||
Elven Warrior
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05-20-2006, 03:41 AM | #7 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Meanwhile, the nazgul felt free to do what they liked. , hobbits were sneaking into Mordor, smoke production in Orodruin decreased dramatically, and orcs fought between themselves.... Poor Sau. |
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05-20-2006, 04:43 AM | #8 | |
Elven Warrior
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05-20-2006, 05:39 AM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
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Could have my timeline messed up, but:
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05-20-2006, 06:27 AM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
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Gor:
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*cough* Galadriel *cough* |
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05-20-2006, 07:30 AM | #11 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Don't you think, that the most obvious thing to do was to send one of the nazgul to Ungol immediately to investigate the matter and report to him? Why didn't he do that? And what if the spy put on the Ring and escaped the orcs? A nazgul was crucial there, much more necessary that screeching over Minas Tirith. Why he forbade the orcs to report to Minas Morgul at all? I say, it was only because he stopped trusting his nazgul. Quote:
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Frodo passed Minas Morgul and saw the Great Signal and the Darkness pouring out of Mordor on March 9. From March 9 to March 13 the Nazgul were unable to send instant messages to Sauron. Aragorn at this time travelled from Erech to Pelargir. Quote:
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05-20-2006, 10:06 AM | #12 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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Orodruin seems to hold some significance that I don’t really understand. Why was this the only place in Middle Earth where the Ring could be destroyed? It doesn’t seem to be simply a matter of high temperatures. After a little research I found that very hot lava may reach about 1250 degrees C, while iron melts at 1535 C. So, the inhabitants of Middle Earth could probably produce higher temperatures than the volcano. I would guess that after making the One, Sauron’s power was greatest at and somewhat tied to this place, just like the Ring’s was. They were basically two parts of the same being after all. Perhaps when Sauron needed his full strength, he went to Orodruin. Quote:
Actually, I don’t think that Sauron believed that there was much of a chance that a Hobbit would still be holding the Ring after it got to Rivendell. He judged people by desire for power. He knew that Gandalf (who had recently questioned Gollum, and so could be expected to know about the Ring) was present at Rivendell. So were Elrond and Glorfindel. Sauron probably thought that one of these people (most likely Gandalf) had taken possession of the Ring. Quote:
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Last edited by CAB : 05-20-2006 at 11:45 AM. |
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05-20-2006, 02:50 PM | #13 | |
Elven Warrior
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I disagree that Sauron didn't trust the nazguls; in Unfinished Tales, it is stated that:
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05-20-2006, 04:20 PM | #14 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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But, what the nazgul were doing, was trying to avoid obtaining it, actually avoid any contact with the Ring. Once they felt it, they headed double quick in the opposite direction. This Sauron couldn't understand for a long time. He really had difficulty understanding people NOT wanting his Ring. CAB is right: Sauron never considered that anyone would want to destroy the Ring, until he was aware of Frodo standing at the Cracks of Doom. There is a good thread by Olmer about the Hunt for the Ring. I bumped it for you.http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...5&page=1&pp=20 Last edited by Gordis : 05-20-2006 at 04:56 PM. |
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05-20-2006, 04:51 PM | #15 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Perhaps, Tolkien thought so as well? IMHO, the reason Gandalf gives is the temperature: no forge, hardly dragon fire, only Orodruin. Quote:
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Then, could this mention of "Rings" refer to the Three and not to the One? Perhaps he knew who had the third Ring (Galadriel and Elrond were easy to guess). Saruman knew that Gandalf had Narya, and likely he told that to Sauron. So, was he suspecting that Gandalf might want to come to Mordor to spy? Also, note "trinkets". Maybe, it was the way to depict other power objects that a powerful spy was likely to possess, like Phial of Galadriel. He would need something to get by the Silent Watchers and other possible traps. Last edited by Gordis : 05-20-2006 at 04:52 PM. |
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05-20-2006, 05:21 PM | #16 | |||
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by CAB : 05-20-2006 at 05:24 PM. |
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05-20-2006, 05:51 PM | #17 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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About standing orders to Shagrat. Isn't it strange that Gorbag from Minas Morgul seemingly had no such orders? After all BOTH fortresses guarded the Pass. |
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05-20-2006, 06:07 PM | #18 | |
Elven Warrior
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05-20-2006, 06:13 PM | #19 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Makes sense.
Minas Morgul was more or less autonomous, had its own livery for instance and its own banners. So probably the standing orders there were different - they had to report to the Morgul Lord, not Sauron. |
05-20-2006, 06:37 PM | #20 | |
Elven Warrior
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