09-13-2003, 01:27 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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Petty Dwarves
I haven't read the Sil for awhile and I lent my copy to a friend so i can't look it up myself and I don't even really know if it's in there anyway. So here is my question,
What is the difference between "real" dwarves and "petty" dwarves? In the chapters with the petty dwarves in the sil where they're with Mim and his sons there isn't really a difference that i noticed between regular dwarves and them. Only that they were kind of cowardly, but that may be because they were the last of their kind.
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09-13-2003, 01:41 PM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
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They were a bit smaller than normal dwarves. And that they were "cowardly" could have been one of the reasons way they were band from the comunities of the other dwarves.
Respectfully Findegil |
09-14-2003, 10:46 AM | #3 | |
Enting
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09-14-2003, 03:14 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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Ok thanks. You would think that the Elves would try to find out about them before they started hunting them.
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09-14-2003, 08:08 PM | #5 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Since they caused the death of Elwe and the fall of Doriath, I'd say the Elves were justified in hunting the little buggers. :P
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09-16-2003, 08:25 AM | #6 | |
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Recalling something that Tolkien states in The Hobbit when he makes an obscure reference to the apparent conflict: he states that it would be only fair to say that the Dwarves have a different account of what had happened. I take this to mean that even Tolkien himself did not want to categorically state that the Dwarves were totally to blame for the killing of Elwe or the ruin of Doriath. Whilst we're on the subject, I believe that Thingol's "lust", pride and arrogance would have been contributary factors in why Doriath fell. It could just as easily be said that he brought about his own downfall by becoming enamoured by the silmaril (not to mention that he caused the deaths of Beren and Luthien by demanding such an impossible request to gain a silmaril in the first place). Finally, those "little buggers" were a noble and very ancient race who apparently also had some sub-creational faculties like the Elves. They shouldn't just be dismissed so casually. The Petty-Dwarves were a "fallen" community from the great Houses of the Dwarves, they appeared to look and behave like animals and that was why the Elves would hunt them. Once they had met the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, they stoppped their activities, realising that they shouldn't have been so impetuous.
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09-16-2003, 09:46 AM | #7 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I was speaking of the "Petty Dwarves," and JRRT is pretty harsh about them, too.
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09-16-2003, 09:57 AM | #8 |
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In that case, could you explain to me what the Petty-Dwarves had to do with the killing of Thingol and the fall of Doriath? I'm getting a bit confused {scratches his head}
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09-16-2003, 10:15 AM | #9 | |
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09-16-2003, 10:25 AM | #10 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-16-2003, 10:35 AM | #11 | |
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(PS - I wasn't really confused!)
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09-16-2003, 10:37 AM | #12 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-16-2003, 10:49 AM | #13 |
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How do you think the Dwarves of Ered Luin felt about the Petty Dwarves?
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09-16-2003, 11:14 AM | #14 | |
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However, it is reasonable to infer, from the evidence available to us in The Sil, that they weren't so denegrated that the Dwarves of Ered Luin abandoned them totally. Indeed, we are told that the Dwarves, in fact, implored the Sindar not to continue attacking the Petty Dwarves and explained to them who and what they were. I believe that the Dwarves felt the same way about the Petty Dwarves as we would, for example, do with our relations who have turned "bad" but nonetheless would still look out for them.
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09-16-2003, 11:29 AM | #15 |
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Interesting. It would seem though, that by the time the Elves had stopped persuing them, they were already an endangered species as it were. Mim and his sons were the last of them. Correct?
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
09-16-2003, 02:30 PM | #16 | |
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09-16-2003, 06:25 PM | #17 |
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@Sister Golden Hair: Yes, the Sindar had nearly hunted them down as it seems.
The Dwarves that helped Finrod building Nargothrond had no problem to outcast the Pettydwarves from their anicient home the caves over the Narog. But the Dwarves felt still a bound of kinship for them. The Sindar did not hut the Pettydwarves just because they seemed to be animals. The Petty dwarves did attack the Elves at unawares and without any proclaim or bargain. That should supply reason enough for the Elves to hunt them. Respectfully Findegil |
09-16-2003, 06:30 PM | #18 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Thank you much, Findegil. That's what I thought.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
09-19-2003, 07:19 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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This has cleared up so much for me! Thanks.
One more question though: Where the Petty Dwarves from everywhere where there was dwarves or were they just in an isolated area before they were cast out?
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09-19-2003, 08:05 PM | #20 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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