The Debate of the Valar: Finwe and Miriel

Attalus · 05-24-2003, 03:28 PM

Reading through Morgoth's Ring, in the section on Finwe and Miriel, I was going through the debate of the Valar, and this assertion struck me: Mandos says, "But I say unto you that the children of Indis shall also be great, and the tale of Arda more glorious for their being ....When he that shall be called Earendil setteth foot upon the shores of Aman ye shall remember my words." Now, this seems to me to be remarkable, but most of all because of the reference to Earendil. Of course, if it were not for Finwe's remarriage, there would have been no Finrod Felagund or Nargothrond, and no Galadriel. But, why would this have to do with Earendil? Then it hit me. If Finrod had not saved Beren's life in the Tol-in-Garhauth, there would have been no rescue of the Silmaril, and no Earendil. Do you think this is what Mandos meant? Opinions appreciated.

Artanis · 05-24-2003, 05:11 PM

What exactly are you getting at, Attalus? I think the reference to EÃ¤rendil is quite simple. If FinwÃ« hadn't married Indis, there would have been no Fingolfin, no Turgon, no Idril Celebrindal - and no EÃ¤rendil.

Inderjit Sanghera · 05-24-2003, 06:17 PM

Yes Finwe and Indis's marriage brought through many great people, as Artanis says culminating in Earendil.

Attalus · 05-24-2003, 06:53 PM

Ah, that's the other thing that was nagging me. Thanks for the replies.

Ruinel · 05-25-2003, 02:28 AM

Interesting. At first, I was also thinking the line of children leading from Indis' children. Now I'm thinking also about the Silmarils and how much grief they brought ME. Lets put aside the simple fact of succession for a moment. If it were not for the problems and strife, would Earendil have made that journey?

Attalus · 05-25-2003, 12:17 PM

I'm not exactly sure from what angle you are asking this, Ruinel, but I think, if I were Earendil, I would have taken the thing back to Valinor just to keep Maedhros and Maglor from killing anyone else over it. Of course, the fact that it allowed him into Valinor and gained the aid of the Valar against Morgoth was the main result.

Ruinel · 05-25-2003, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
I'm not exactly sure from what angle you are asking this, Ruinel, but I think, if I were Earendil, I would have taken the thing back to Valinor just to keep Maedhros and Maglor from killing anyone else over it. Of course, the fact that it allowed him into Valinor and gained the aid of the Valar against Morgoth was the main result.

There ya go.

***RÃan*** · 05-27-2003, 11:38 PM

I always thought of it the way Artanis did - the line of EÃ¤rendil's mother, Idril: FinwÃ«+Indis --> Fingolfin --> Turgon --> Idril Celebrindal --> EÃ¤rendil, but that's also true about Finrod saving Beren - neat thought. Finrod saved his cousin's daughter's husband-to-be.

I just wish Finrod hadn't died in the process

but what a heroic act.

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-27-2003, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Finrod saved his cousin's daughter's husband-to-be.

Dark Helmet: "Before we fight, there is something you should know about us. I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's uncle's son's roomate."

***RÃan*** · 05-28-2003, 12:02 AM

Great movie!

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-28-2003, 12:05 AM

That it was.

Mel Brooks ROCKS!

05-24-2003, 03:28 PM	#1
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	The Debate of the Valar: Finwe and Miriel Reading through Morgoth's Ring, in the section on Finwe and Miriel, I was going through the debate of the Valar, and this assertion struck me: Mandos says, "But I say unto you that the children of Indis shall also be great, and the tale of Arda more glorious for their being ....When he that shall be called Earendil setteth foot upon the shores of Aman ye shall remember my words." Now, this seems to me to be remarkable, but most of all because of the reference to Earendil. Of course, if it were not for Finwe's remarriage, there would have been no Finrod Felagund or Nargothrond, and no Galadriel. But, why would this have to do with Earendil? Then it hit me. If Finrod had not saved Beren's life in the Tol-in-Garhauth, there would have been no rescue of the Silmaril, and no Earendil. Do you think this is what Mandos meant? Opinions appreciated. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 05-24-2003 at 03:30 PM.

05-24-2003, 05:11 PM	#2
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with FÃ«anor's 7 Posts: 4,285	What exactly are you getting at, Attalus? I think the reference to EÃ¤rendil is quite simple. If FinwÃ« hadn't married Indis, there would have been no Fingolfin, no Turgon, no Idril Celebrindal - and no EÃ¤rendil. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

05-24-2003, 06:53 PM	#4
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Ah, that's the other thing that was nagging me. Thanks for the replies. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

05-25-2003, 12:17 PM	#6
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I'm not exactly sure from what angle you are asking this, Ruinel, but I think, if I were Earendil, I would have taken the thing back to Valinor just to keep Maedhros and Maglor from killing anyone else over it. Of course, the fact that it allowed him into Valinor and gained the aid of the Valar against Morgoth was the main result. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

05-27-2003, 11:38 PM	#8
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	I always thought of it the way Artanis did - the line of EÃ¤rendil's mother, Idril: FinwÃ«+Indis --> Fingolfin --> Turgon --> Idril Celebrindal --> EÃ¤rendil, but that's also true about Finrod saving Beren - neat thought. Finrod saved his cousin's daughter's husband-to-be. I just wish Finrod hadn't died in the process but what a heroic act. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-27-2003 at 11:43 PM.

05-24-2003, 06:17 PM	#3
Inderjit Sanghera Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England. Posts: 260	Yes Finwe and Indis's marriage brought through many great people, as Artanis says culminating in Earendil.

05-25-2003, 02:28 AM	#5
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	Interesting. At first, I was also thinking the line of children leading from Indis' children. Now I'm thinking also about the Silmarils and how much grief they brought ME. Lets put aside the simple fact of succession for a moment. If it were not for the problems and strife, would Earendil have made that journey?

05-28-2003, 12:02 AM	#10
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Great movie! __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

05-28-2003, 12:05 AM	#11
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	That it was. Mel Brooks ROCKS! __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

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