08-27-2001, 10:06 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: St. Louis, Mo. USA
Posts: 561
|
Death of the Witch King.
The chief of the Wringwraiths at the Battle of the Pelenor fields said that no "man" could defeat him...then Eowyn and Merry defeated him. Was it really because they were "woman and hobbit"? Was it something to do with their weapons? Could a dwarf or elf defeat him...because they were "not men"?
__________________
Ringbearer Hide Witch, hide! The Good Folks come to burn thee! Their keen enjoyment hid behind A Gothic mask of duty! |
08-27-2001, 10:13 PM | #2 |
The man
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MA
Posts: 4,572
|
It's probably the only example of a plot twist by Tolkien that is just plain corny. Eowyn and Merry killed him because they are woman and hobbit.
|
08-27-2001, 11:17 PM | #3 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 22
|
This is the use of a very standard device in tales (see Shakespear's MacBeth). It is the Prophecy of Doom TM. Something like, "No man will ever kill you," which makes you feel real special, and then you get whipped by your little sister.
It's similar to the prophecy by Frodo on the steps of Mount Doom: Quote:
The most famous example of this is Shakespear's witches in MacBeth, who tell him that he will not be harmed by Man born of Woman, and then MacDuff informs him that he was delivered by C-Section.!!! |
|
08-28-2001, 03:37 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
It was fate. Glorfindel foretold that if he was going to die, it wouldn't be by the hands of a man. Merry was certainly able to hurt him because he had a blade of Westernesse (after a fashion), laden with spells for the Witchking's demise. It broke what spell of power that was about him, thus enabling him to be killed by anyone who could. But he wouldn't be killed, if at all, by anyone but a woman, considering the situation: Éowen. Perhaps it wasn't so specific, perhaps it was definitely 'by anyone but someone who was not a man'. Lower case 'm'. Would Gandalf apply? He was definitely male, visually a man, and even as a spirit a male, but not a Man, not human. Glorfindel apparently meant both or either, either not a Man, or not a man. Perhaps he didn't know which. For Merry was a man, but a Hobbit. While Éowen was a Man (a human being) but a woman.* Anyway had Gandalf set out to battle him, I don't think he would have accomplished what Éowen did without a weapon specifically made for the purpose.
I don't see what is corny about it. Glorfindel foresaw that the slayer (if there was going to be one) of the Witchking was not a man. So he said something along the lines of 'No man will slay him' (I'd have to look it up) and it became famous. Sure enough, Éowen comes along and achieves it, with the help of a Hobbit. I don't think that's corny. *Yet to make it more confusing, Tolkien said more than once in letters that Hobbits are a diminutive Race of Man! I guess for the situation, they were far removed enough from their origins as not to be considered 'human'. Edited: I just realized I spelled Éowyn's name wrong throughout.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
08-29-2001, 09:32 PM | #5 |
Enting
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 60
|
I don't think it's corny at all! It's my second favorite moment in Tolkien (the first being when Frodo and Gollum make the pact on the Ring). Though I'd say that it wouldn't matter if Hobbits were a form of man, because Merry didn't *kill* the Witch King, just wounded him.
--Erewë PS- The exact words were "Man of woman born". Sorry, it's my favorite Shakespeare play and the fact that my Jr. High School Drama Club did it a few years back makes me a bit prejudice for it.
__________________
"Waaaaiiiit, I haven't read Tolkien in over a week!" --Tom Servo "Hey! Look! There he goes! Oh, it's just a crumby Balrog" --Crow T Robot "I'll just see if Bombadil has a place to crash" --Pearl Forrester "Put a sock in it, Legolas" --Mike Nelson "Hey Gollum. Whats up man?" --Tom Servo |
08-29-2001, 09:33 PM | #6 |
Enting
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 60
|
Yay! I'm an enting! 50 posts! Next stop: 100
--Erewë
__________________
"Waaaaiiiit, I haven't read Tolkien in over a week!" --Tom Servo "Hey! Look! There he goes! Oh, it's just a crumby Balrog" --Crow T Robot "I'll just see if Bombadil has a place to crash" --Pearl Forrester "Put a sock in it, Legolas" --Mike Nelson "Hey Gollum. Whats up man?" --Tom Servo |
09-01-2001, 01:40 AM | #7 |
Sapling
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northern, California
Posts: 10
|
I used to be an Elven Warrior before the move, oddly enough I actually post more now, than I used too.
|
09-01-2001, 01:09 PM | #8 |
Sapling
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11
|
Actually it does not say that the Witch-King was killed. I recall reading in the Fellowship that you could not kill one of the Nazgul that easily as the power of their rings sustained them.
|
09-01-2001, 04:01 PM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa
Posts: 327
|
Quote:
__________________
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. |
|
09-09-2001, 02:54 PM | #10 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 32
|
It is basically a sort of pun used by Tolkien. I found it quite humorous. Commonly the word "man" is used as in "human" (and human -- according to Tolkien -- includes hobbits), but here it didn't. I liked it
|
09-20-2001, 11:24 PM | #11 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 30
|
yes.
|
09-21-2001, 12:50 AM | #12 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: St. Louis, Mo. USA
Posts: 561
|
no. (heh-heh) I don't think hobbits were considered "human".
I believe "human" refers to "man".
__________________
Ringbearer Hide Witch, hide! The Good Folks come to burn thee! Their keen enjoyment hid behind A Gothic mask of duty! |
09-13-2010, 08:48 PM | #13 | |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Ruins of Arnor
Posts: 892
|
Quote:
__________________
"I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run." |
|
09-18-2010, 10:57 PM | #14 | |||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Area 51
Posts: 116
|
Here are Glorfindel's words
Quote:
The original question was Quote:
The Nazgul's primary weapon is fear. Beings that had seen the undying lands, like elf-lords or Istari, do not fear the Nazgul and therefore would have a better chance of beating him. This may have been what Glorfindel meant by his words. Consider this passage from Many Meetings (Frodo is Convalescing in Rivendell) Quote:
__________________
Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom. |
|||
09-19-2010, 07:54 AM | #15 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
I think it was a prophecy, meant as one of those old-time ironic sayings so popular with oracles, as when King Croesus asked the Oracle of Delphi about making war on Persia and got the reply "if Croesus goes to war he will destroy a great empire"- he did, his own.
So yea, it was a play on words on the double meaning of man- either "male " or "human".
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
09-20-2010, 09:40 AM | #16 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
|
Quote:
And both Eowyn and Merry are included within the story as fulfilling the prophecy, as the Rohirrim (internal characters) include both -- in the book, Merry was said to be 'also' not a Man (according to the footnote in Appendix A concerning Eowyn and the Witch-king), which means to me that the scops of the Rohirrim understand and echo the play on words... ... which surely Tolkien himself was not unaware of Last edited by Galin : 09-20-2010 at 02:02 PM. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Visitors Come to Court | Valandil | Writer's Workshop | 56 | 01-27-2010 11:29 AM |
Theological Opinions , PART II | jerseydevil | General Messages | 993 | 03-22-2007 05:19 AM |
gandalf or the witch king | orithil | Middle Earth | 17 | 08-10-2006 11:26 AM |
Scarcely Heard of the King in these parts | TreebeardQuickbeam | The Hobbit (book) | 3 | 06-07-2006 06:50 AM |
(EE) Witch King vs. Gandalf | The Wizard from Milan | Lord of the Rings Movies | 34 | 05-20-2005 07:46 PM |