10-14-2014, 01:15 AM | #1 |
Hobbit
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Gwaihir wings Gandalf to Lorien
ONE DAY AFTER THE FELLOWSHIP LEAVE!??
I was reading through the appendices, and after over a decade of reading the Lord of the Rings almost yearly, I realized this. So if they would've stayed one day longer (which would've made no difference to them, since the flow of time in Lothlorien is hardly noticed), they would've been reunited with Gandalf and learned of his trials with the Balrog. Then what would've happened? Would the Fellowship have ever been broken? And if the Fellowship hadn't been broken, could they have ultimately failed the quest? Unanswerable of course, but interesting nonetheless.
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Thus he came alone to Angband's gates. . . and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. |
10-14-2014, 05:40 AM | #2 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Yeah, I noticed that too. One day, talk about a close shave! Still, it's difficult to say how things would have changed. It only took ten days after they left Lothlórien for the Fellowship to break up and by that time Gandalf had not managed to catch up, despite having clear knowledge of the path and manner the Fellowship was travelling in.
That could mean that Gandalf needed to stay in Lothlórien for a few days anyway, which if would result in slowing the Fellowship too if they still had been present. That delay may have led to the orcs being closer and the ambush happening on a different place, or maybe missing the Fellowship all together. All things are possible. It's equally hard to predict how Boromir would have reacted with Gandalf present. I tend to think even he would not have prevented Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Even Galadriel saw it coming, but could do nothing other than give warning. Ultimatedly it was up to Boromir himself to pick a path. Funny, all things considered, how so many things in the story depend on Gandalf being delayed. |
10-14-2014, 12:23 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Nothing would change. Gandalf did not want to go with the Fellowship in the first place.
He was looking for an excuse, like Elrond's okay nod even when he was pressed to give a definite answer. He planned to pull-off the same disappearance arrangement with the Fellowship, as he managed to do with Thorin's group. Moria was a perfect place for a such caper of getting off the hook and returning to Valinor peaceful gardens. ( But (alas!) he was sent back again! ) So this is why he did not form far reached plans " We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then... -" (LOTR. Book II, chapt. III)... Seems it's no reason in withholding the course of the journey from the company, unless you know about an inevitable split of the Fellowship . According to Galadriel's and Gandalf's "design", the Ring should again disappear forever in the waters of the river, but Gandalf's presence would require him to interfere with such "misfortune". So, even if he would happily pass Moria unscathed, he would be finding the reason to stay behind and letting the events to take its planned course.
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10-14-2014, 02:33 PM | #4 |
Hobbit
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Oof!
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Thus he came alone to Angband's gates. . . and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. Last edited by AndMorgothCame. : 10-20-2022 at 06:10 PM. |
10-19-2014, 05:16 PM | #5 |
Elf Lord
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One day..
in whose reckoning? In the time-distorted ... Elven ring-wielded ... reflected-glow of the Elder days, that was LothLorien? In this question, from the outset, can we ascertain, in terms of timelines...and "time"... are we judging by the Red book appendixes, and if so, by the assumptions or (possibly mortal misconceptions) of it's authors? If so, perhaps we can move on to the idea that "time" isnt a linear expression , nor in no way a "one size fits all" contant concrete concept, most especially as "time" - that is to say the value of any given time... can be deemed to be different between Elf, and Man, or Hobbit? Last edited by Butterbeer : 10-19-2014 at 05:19 PM. |
10-21-2014, 05:38 AM | #6 |
Hobbit
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Well, no Butterbeer, I don't think you could be too correct in assuming that? Time is fairly concrete when dealing with Middle Earth (the Sun and the Moon have made it so). Just because it's essence is changed in different places doesn't mean there isn't a true flow of time, one that is unhindered by the magic of Lothlorien and other places.
Yes, I'm using the appendices. Here is a link to the pic of the exact entry, just so you know what I'm seeing: http://i.imgur.com/Zw4XSE1.jpg Interpreting it any other way than the Fellowship being a day's march ahead of Gwaihir and Gandalf in Lorien seems too unsubstantial to even declaim. Heck I'm beginning to think you're just looking to split hairs. Don't split my hairs bro.
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Thus he came alone to Angband's gates. . . and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. |
10-22-2014, 01:53 AM | #7 | ||||
Salt Miner
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AndMorgothCame, I cannot see your pic very well. But that is of no matter: in Appendix B of RotK, we find, as you say,
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We could go on. But suffice it to say that it seems that one day in Lórien proved critically important. |
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10-22-2014, 03:11 AM | #8 |
Hobbit
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This is an answer I was looking for, and then some. Thanks for the depth of details, I agree almost completely, and it helped my point towards the idea of that one day making a HUGE difference.
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Thus he came alone to Angband's gates. . . and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. |
10-22-2014, 09:56 AM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
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To be serious though, I think that the Ring was too powerful to be destroyed by anything less than itself. Sauron's own path leads the Hobbits up Mt Doom. When Frodo is nearly beaten by Gollum near the top, the Ring gives him the power to fight Gollum off. And of course, it destroys itself when it holds Gollum to his oath so when he wrests the Ring from Frodo they are both cast into the Fire. This is a running theme throughout Tolkien's work, and may be as much an intrinsic part of Middle Earth as a characteristic of Tolkien's storytelling. If Gandalf had been around, Gollum may not have been present at the Fires of Doom.
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11-01-2014, 11:04 AM | #10 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Legolas the Elf Moreover, it is clear in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings that Tolkien did consider that actual time be different in Lorien, but this was problematic and he abandoned the idea. Lorien may be 'timeless' in that time does not seem to affect it, but that is about preservation power, not time itself. In the essay Aman (Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien will explain that time in Aman was actual time -- if 100 years pass by in Middle-earth so 100 years pass by in Aman, but change and growth in those 100 years in Aman was slower, and thus more in accord with Elvish perception. Compare to: Quote:
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11-03-2014, 04:14 PM | #11 | |
Elf Lord
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would require forging by The House of Fëanor, surely.. ? Celebrimbor perhaps? But i note you confirm the use of the Appendices. On that part, then - it it is fairly clear ref the timeline and, as you say at the outset, quite surprising that Gandalf is borne to Lothlorien the day after they leave: certainly not something i'd noticed either. That doesn't however make my question any the less interesting, nor valid. Despite Alcuin's somewhat airy and rather controversial tome on the 22nd of October one doesn't need either an eucatastrophe, nor a superbly fine scalpel to raise umbrage with the concept that time is purportedly experienced linearly between species. To claim it is, would seem disingenuous on the basis outlined - i.e a Day is determined by the sun and the moon. A set period - 24 hours. On this basis- if we compare the experiential concept of "time" experienced by an Ent, with say a Mayfly: the relative concepts of Time such as a Year, or a day, an hour, or a second... will vary incredibly. Then we have Gandalf stepping (or moving- being moved) right out of time- quite literally. This is pretty indisputable. However, suddenly the assumed idea that Time is by definition concretely linear and immutable is clearly open for debate. Where - or rather when Gandalf was re-inserted back into the timeline would appear to be at entirely the choice of whomever sent him back. Presumably then it was - according to Alcuin - essentially ordained that Gandalf would miss them. Which leaves us with the question of the perception of Time, and brings us onto free-will... Last edited by Butterbeer : 11-03-2014 at 04:18 PM. |
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11-03-2014, 05:59 PM | #12 | |||||||
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As children, most of us were given “time out”: standing in a corner, sitting in a chair, what-have-you, as correction for our behavior. Five minutes in a corner for a four-year-old is as like age in Purgatory; five minutes to a teenager more a bother; and five minutes to an adult simply a few moments to recollect one’s thoughts. The reason is quite clear: small children have lived a short time, and that “time out” is a noticeable portion of it. To a middle-aged or older adult, it is merely part of the long stream, as Legolas might put it. (And did, as they floated along the stream of Anduin.) So also for the Dúnedain of Númenor, who argued with the Eldar of Eressëa over whether or not their mortality was a blessing, a curse, or the will of Eru. The Eldar lacked a palpable fear of termination; this reappears in the tale “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth” (“Debate of Finrod and Andreth”) in Morgoth’s Ring: they feared their end at the end of Arda, but it was far enough away in time that it did not influence their daily thought or actions. That very matter arises again in “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” – Arwen is not ready to pass from life to death, though Aragorn, mortal from birth, is reconciled to it. To Treebeard, five centuries of the Rohirrim in Calenardhon is a short time; to the Rohirrim, it is so long that it is time out of memory. Gandalf knew more about the history of Hobbits than they themselves; but to the Hobbits of the Shire, history began with Marcho and Blanco settling the Shire. Legolas called his companions “children”. Aragorn complained to Gandalf that he was “no longer young even in the reckoning of the Men of the Ancient Houses.” Even to Denethor, “his” Gondor began with the ruling stewardship of Mardil after Eärnur passed into Morgul Vale. Faramir looked to a longer history that Denethor disdained. Perception of time is the point: Quote:
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Ah! I’d no idea I’d ignited a controversy! Well, good. It’s been rather slow here lately: a brisk series of posts to put a controversy to rest would invigorate us all. Touché! |
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11-04-2014, 02:46 PM | #13 | ||
Elf Lord
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. ....................... En Garde. . . ...............................................Votre arrogance rend cette une affaire d'honneur. ******~~~~~~~~~~~********************~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~#####################~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~****** ************************** . . . . C'est Indubitably so, Monsieur Alcuin ********** For what matters one day? And for whom, and for why? Quote:
All that is missing, for this to be a truly interesting, nay Key question - is Time and Will. *****~~~~****** in necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas Last edited by Butterbeer : 11-04-2014 at 03:35 PM. |
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11-04-2014, 05:07 PM | #14 | |
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Wonderful! Butterbeer, you made me laugh, and I hadn’t laughed in days. Thank you!
I made a list in my “somewhat airy and rather controversial tome”. Is it objectionable? Controversial? For your convenience, the list of things that did happen has been numbered; the list of things that did not happen, lettered. Now you may pick them apart more easily. Quote:
Or did I, perchance, miss your point entirely? (In which case I must stand for the shot.) Last edited by Alcuin : 11-04-2014 at 05:10 PM. |
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11-16-2014, 03:54 AM | #15 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-16-2014 at 03:58 AM. |
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