01-27-2003, 01:12 AM | #1 |
Quasi Evil
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Gandolf, Moria and Durin's Bane
Ok get ready for a shot gun question attack: First off, what did Gandolf know already about the dangers of moria? Did he know there was a Balrog in there? I mean Durins Bane was a known term to everyone at that point. And how could Gimli have been so clueless about Moria being such a great place to go when it was obviously a tomb for so long? Was he really that out of touch with his cousin? I mean if this Balrog had basically brought the downfall of the greatest dwarf kingdom on earth wouldnt it be fairly common knowledge and gandolf could say hey theres a freaking BALROG in there we aint goin that way. And why did he tell Frodo to choose the way anyway? Somehow i got the idea that gandolf sensed something (doom? the presence of another maiar?) but didnt know for sure excatly in what form it would take.
Oh and the orcs that attack them in the mines are they agents of sauron or just some native nasties who now lived there?
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01-27-2003, 05:53 AM | #2 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Maybe this should be in the Movies forum; you can find most of the answers in the book. In particular, the Appendices have lots of stuff about the war of Orcs and Dwarves in Moria. The main enemy was Orcs rather than a balrog; Balin returned to Moria after the Battle of the Five Armies in the hope that they had all been wiped out and he'd be able to re-establish their kingdom.
Basically, it was Gandalf's idea to enter Moria; it was Aragorn who had misgivings about it. The company were divided on whether to attempt it after the snow storm on Caradhras and Frodo kind of had the casting vote. In the book, it seems that Gandalf had no expectation of running into Durin's Bane. Which, come to think of it, is a subtle but significant deviation from the book. Not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere. cheers d. |
01-27-2003, 11:49 AM | #3 |
Quasi Evil
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Oh Im sure Im mixing up some movie stuff here with some book stuff but the fact is I was already confused about the whole Moria issue even before I saw the movie and seeing the movie just made it worse for me. Heres what the BOOK tells you about the situation (mostly from the appendix):
-The balrog escapes into the misty mountains; sleeps for some 5,000 years and is awoken either by the dwarven mithral miners or by the presence of sauron in nearby Dol Guldur. Or both. -The Balrog rampages through Moria, killing Balin the king. -Náin I becomes king and they are at war with the Balrog for about a year but lose and Náin is killed. -The remaining dwarves flee Moria spreading word about the creature and the terror of the Balrog is even well known enough to cause the Silvan Elves at Lórien to leave their home and escape to the south. -For 500 years Moria is deserted and haunted by the Balrog. 500 years! -Balin (Gimlis cousin) tries to recolonize Moria but is unsuccesful. Although Im not sure if we are ever told how long Balin and company remained in Moria before the Balrog (and the orcs that have moved into the area) wipe them out. Certainly long enough for Gimli to think hey my cousin has a great place there we will be treated with a royal welcome. -The Fellowship passes through some 30 years after Balin and company attempt to colonize Moria and find a tomb untouched for decades. See now from this I just cant understand how none of the company (especially gandolf or gimli) can be aware of what they may encounter in the mines. Are we to believe that a creature that almost destroys an entire civilization and scares off elves and others that live nearby can be completely forgotten? I guess so. And doesnt Gimli have any kind of contact with his cousins kin that would at least alert him that no one is alive there nor have they been for a long time? Finally, does the Balrog come after the company because he heard them? Because he heard the orc activity caused by them? Or is does he sense the ring nearby and comes out to investigate?
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01-27-2003, 12:06 PM | #4 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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[
Finally, does the Balrog come after the company because he heard them? Because he heard the orc activity caused by them? Or is does he sense the ring nearby and comes out to investigate? [/B][/QUOTE] Okay I can't really answer your first questions but here are my thoughts on this one. I always thought that the orc activity is what caused the Balrog to come ofafter the company. I don't think that he is really concerned with the Ring, or perhaps he doesn't really even know about it...after all Balrogs served Morgoth...I don't think that any ever served Sauron seeing as how they are both Maiar....I hope I didn't confuse you more! |
01-27-2003, 12:39 PM | #5 |
Elven Warrior
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and your question about are the orcs servants of sauron- in my opinion no as he would have used them to a greater purpose like attacking lorien or something.and the balrog deffinately wasnt under his command as somebody already said they were both maiars and the balrog had no need to serve sauron and if he did sauron would have used him a long time ago to lead an attack against lorien or mirkwood.
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01-27-2003, 01:07 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
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02-13-2003, 05:23 PM | #7 | ||
Enting
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Quote:
Gandalf was just like everyone else - knew that something terrible was down there; something terrible enough to take over Durin's kingdom. This was a combined effort of the orcs and the balrog. If you have read The Hobbit and the appendices with The Return of the King, you are familiar with Dáin Ironfoot. The fall of Durin's kingdom happened when Dáin was a relatively young man. In this Battle of Azanulbizar, Dáin slew Azog, chieftain of the orcs of the Misty Mountains. He saw the worst of that battle, and saw the balrog, Durin's Bane, himself. He, more than anyone, knew the terror that was in Moria. (Of course, he didn't know it was a 'balrog.') Note Dáin's comments: Quote:
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02-13-2003, 05:26 PM | #8 | |||
Enting
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Just after that in the appendices is something that gives a hint as to why Balin felt it was necessary to return to Moria:
Quote:
Quote:
The main reason for Balin's return to Moria is given by Glóin at the Council though. They felt they were losing the greatness of their fathers, and that they needed to expand their kingdom outside of the mountains in the northeast where the Lonely Mountain and Erebor left. They *thought* they had enough power and numbers to hold out on any attacks they may encounter. Quote:
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02-13-2003, 05:28 PM | #9 | |||
Enting
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The last portion indicates part of why Glóin came to the Council in the first place, which he also mentioned earlier (the other part was that Dain had encountered Sauron and wanted Bilbo to know he was been sought after by Sauron):
Quote:
Quote:
Part of Sauron was in the Ring, and he would've been able to sense such a strong evil power when nearby. Whether or not the balrog was in direct allegiance with Sauron then, he was very familiar with Sauron, as Sauron was Morgoth's second-in-command during the great wars of the First Age. As to whether or not the balrog was under the direct control is debatable and could go either way, really. Just because Sauron is now the Dark Lord does not automatically place the balrog under his authority. It's possible that the balrog would acknowledge Sauron as Morgoth's heir, but not definite. From 'Myths Transformed': Quote:
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02-13-2003, 11:44 PM | #10 |
Quasi Evil
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whew. quite impressive. so let me get this straight. the dwarves never actually knew what this thing was (the Balrog) even when it haunted their mountain kingdom and killed many of them. they just knew it as this unspeakable horror that they could not defeat. now if the Balrog was active for 500 years in Moria and it was known even by the local elves why wouldnt it quickly become common knowlege throughout the land? and sooner or later someone old enough and/or wise enough could put two and two together and realize holy god its a Balrog for gods sake! even if the dwarves didnt know what to call it. certainly the survivers came out with stories that made it clear what ever it was it was horribly powerful. not to mention they could probably describe its appearance well. and how many things are cloaked in fire and shadow.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 02-13-2003 at 11:46 PM. |
02-13-2003, 11:53 PM | #11 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 02-13-2003 at 11:54 PM. |
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