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12-18-2004, 05:54 PM | #1 | |||
Elf Lord
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Now I know that many religious leaders among the Arabs have called for the utter destruction of the Israeli state, and I also know that the Arab nations surrounding Israel did aggressively attack Israel with the intent of annihilating it. I also heard that this was in part done because of what happened to the Palestinians, because of the Palestinian expulsions the Jews were committing. The Palestinians were angry at the Arabs for not coming to their rescue sooner. Quote:
I have some difficulty with your reasoning though. You are pointing the finger back at the Arab countries, using Palestininan support, as the aggressors. However, you seem to be justifying Israel's retaliation based upon the argument "they started it." Though in fact their having really started it is questionable- I don't look on America with an attitude of "they started it" because we destroyed the depraved regime that ruled Iraq. In the same way I don't look on the Arab nations as having been utterly horrible because of invading Israel, when in part they were doing so because of the suffering of their fellow Arab and Muslim kin (the Israelis did deport people before the major war with the Arab nations). But even if the Arab nations and Palestinians did "start it" that wouldn't be justification for the Israelis behaving with cruelty to the Palestinians. When Germany was split by the Berlin Wall, the Americans took care of their side of the place and poured money into it. We helped the German people, while Russia abused and took advantage of them. The Russians had justification, because Germany had certainly invaded Russia in the past. Yet did that give them the right to go through Berlin raping the women, taking what they wanted, and reducing their side of the country to poverty? In the same way Israel has stifled the Palestinian people and continues to keep them in a state of poverty and despair, packed into refugee camps in a state of squalor. Did Russia and does Israel have the right to be inhumane, because someone else was inhumane first?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-20-2004, 11:01 AM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Free, happy, drunk and sincere
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Well I figure thats its about time for me to get into this wonderfully fair and unbiased discussion, a discussion not littered with ignorance or intolerance at all...
I love how people always point towards the teachings of Islam, and see nothing but car bombers and terrorists. I mean, gee, its not like Christians have ever killed in the name of Allah, er God, and its not like they still use their religion to persecute those that they see as undesirable, ungodly or just plain evil. Do they? Lets take a ride out to the bible belt of the good ole land of tolerance and freedom of speech and expression, the USA. Lets see if Gays, blacks and jews feel as though they live in a land without fear. How many hate crimes and Gay bashings happened last year? How many Blacks have been strung up on trees over the years for looking too long at the local white shopkeepers daughter? Perhaps the land of Slavery (slavery that was long still in place after it was abolished in Europe), those unbiased and fair Klu Klux Klansmen , and then that pesky, unfortunate matter of the anihhilation of their entire native populations; perhaps they should think twice before they point the finger at Europe on the tolerance front, eh?
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12-20-2004, 11:55 AM | #3 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Fenir - you're off topic. There are plenty of threads to discuss those other things you mention. If not, feel free to make one if you like.
The point of this thread was initially to note the increasing presence of Moslems in Europe - and the resultant changes to Europe. If you wish to say that these changes are not happening, or that the changes are good things or are inconsequential, or whatever else pertains to the issue, you are free to do so. But please don't try to make this thread about just anything. EDIT: upon further review, I see that your post isn't the only one that's OT (although it is perhaps the most so), so EVERYONE, please - let's keep the discussion in the thread on topic!
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 12-20-2004 at 12:30 PM. |
12-21-2004, 01:33 AM | #4 | |
Elven Warrior
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Perhaps some sort of reply would be in order, as opposed to your lovely sweeping generalisations. And anyway, given that everyone else was going on about the intolerance of Europe, (the "tolerant" JD included), I felt obligated to state the proverbial "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," argument. Though I agree Val, this has gotten off topic, but not by me. So how 'bout those Muslims gaining influence in the west, eh?
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12-21-2004, 04:57 PM | #5 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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Well, as instigator of this thread, I should like to see it continue in regards to Europe. However, I am personally open to a thread on Islamic influence in the US from some folks across the pond. Perhaps you two gents could agree to continue this vituperative and highly entertaining exchange there ?
What say you oh High King Valandil? Could we confine USA bashing to one thread with regard to Islam? I shall be learning and arguing as well I suppose! Kinda hard to resist!
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12-21-2004, 05:03 PM | #6 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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12-21-2004, 05:04 PM | #7 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I had been about to step in yet again and ask our two compatriots to cease and desist... hopefully, this will do the trick. Fenir - you are indeed welcome to start whatever thread you like, as long as it's within forum guidelines. IIRC, your very first post on this board was the start of an anti-US thread. So... no need to pretend you wouldn't be allowed to do it.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 12-21-2004 at 05:06 PM. |
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12-21-2004, 05:11 PM | #8 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-21-2004, 05:12 PM | #9 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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being proud of you own nationality, religion, etc. is fine... acting as if it is "the only way and everyone should understand that" is what causes problems Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-21-2004, 05:15 PM | #10 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-21-2004, 05:16 PM | #11 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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My word choice is my own. I'll try harder next time to think of something better to call the two of you when you fight.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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12-21-2004, 05:20 PM | #12 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-21-2004, 05:21 PM | #13 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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go to any town in the US these days, there are "rich" sections (some even gated off) and "poor" sections... and there are parts of the country divided by religion and culture just as strong as any two european nations we are not the "melting pot" we once were Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-21-2004, 05:22 PM | #14 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-21-2004, 05:26 PM | #15 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-21-2004, 05:27 PM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-21-2004, 05:34 PM | #17 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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I find your knowledge in this area rather narrow and lacking in many respects Lief.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-21-2004, 05:37 PM | #18 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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our political system is slowly becoming a more and more closed playing field
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-21-2004, 05:46 PM | #19 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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OK guys... back on topic!
I DON'T wanna have to split this thread!
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
12-21-2004, 05:53 PM | #20 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
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of course, then there'd be nothing to bitch about, so i'll just let it go
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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