04-21-2006, 07:19 AM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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How did Denethor know about Aragorn?
In ROTK Denethor refers to Gandalf using him, and Gondor, as a shield against Mordor whilst with the other hand bringing up a "ranger to supplant me".
How did he know this? We know from ROTK that Denethor could only see in the Palantir what Sauron permitted him to see. Did, then, Sauron reveal this to Denethor only after Aragorn had revealed himself to Sauron? Or was there some other means by which he knew? |
04-21-2006, 07:44 AM | #2 |
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I guess Denethor pieced it together.
I wonder if the statement about Sauron only allowing Denethor to see what he wanted him to see should have been further qualified in some way? Like perhaps, that pertained to the devices of Sauron that Denethor might try to examine. For instance, if Denethor was looking toward Mordor, Sauron might just "slightly divert" his gaze, to show him what he wanted him to see. But maybe it would have been harder for Sauron to completely control what he saw - especially if he was looking in a totally different direction??? (all conjecture on my part - but do you think maybe plausible?) Even then, I doubt he would have been able to closely watch Aragorn through the Palantir. It would be like constantly trying to find a needle in a haystack. It would be one thing if Aragorn was constantly out in the open, leading large armies of men into battle - that would be pretty noticeable. But the lifestyle of a solitary Ranger would be harder to seek out, perhaps. Here's a theory: Denethor begins to suspect something of Aragorn's true heritage while Aragorn serves his father Ecthelion in the guise of Thorongil. Once he becomes Steward and begins using the Stone, haunted by those memories and what they might one day reveal, he searches. And - if he doesn't see a whole lot of Aragorn, then by frequent observation is at least able to discover the remnants of the Northern Dunedain. He sees also that Mithrandir goes all about Eriador. He puts it all together and comes up with his theory. It's also possible that the House of Stewards knew (or guessed?) somewhat of the Rangers of the North - even if they kept that knowledge to themselves. (In fact, I have some fanfic outlined ... but I'll save that for another day )
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04-21-2006, 10:49 AM | #3 |
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Definitely plausible. Indeed, it would seem unlikely that the Stewards knew nothing of the Northern line, given that (Arvedui?) they had tried to claim the throne in the past and been knocked back, and that there was documentary evidence sitting in Minas Tirith.
Clearly, the Stewards were none too keen to reinstate the monarchy given that they could surely have found the surviving heir had they wanted to. However, in Denethor's questioning of Pippin, and Gandalf's debrief, we get a pretty explicit indication that Denethor didn't at that time know of Aragorn's particular existence. He might suspect it (he wonders why Boromir did not lead the company), but doesn't know it. Sauron also did not know of Aragorn's existence and lineage prior to Aragorn revealing himself (oo-er). This is pretty clearly stated in TTT, IIRC. Did Sauron then tell Denethor specifically about "this ranger of the North" who would supplant him? I wonder if this is what unhinged his mind (a lose-lose situation)? Not sure if Denethor ever made the connection to Thorongil however. |
04-21-2006, 02:18 PM | #4 |
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i'd be willing to bet that after aragorn revealed himself to sauron, sauron let denethor see it so that he wouldn't trust ol' mithrandir...
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04-21-2006, 03:34 PM | #5 | |
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04-21-2006, 03:58 PM | #6 |
AngAdan
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Denethor would have some information over the years about what was going on in the north among the Dunedain there.
He met Aragorn (AKA Thorongil) when Thorongil was performing errantry in Gondor under Ecthelion II, D's father, and may have become suspicious of his identity and lineage at that early time. It is sugested in Appedix A that D was jealous of Thorongil (A) even at that time.
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04-21-2006, 04:04 PM | #7 | |
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04-22-2006, 12:27 PM | #8 |
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I would agree with Spock that all the above posts help explain Denethor’s knowledge.
Also I think he and Valandil are right that Sauron couldn’t choose everything Denethor would see through the Palantir. In addition to the problem of the direction in which Denethor looked, there is the fact that Sauron couldn’t constantly monitor the Stone (this is stated in The Palantiri in Unfinished Tales). So Denethor should have had opportunities to use the Palantir without Sauron’s involvment. What is new to me is the idea that Sauron showed Aragorn to Denethor. This makes sense. Sauron’s primary purpose for the Palantir with Denethor wasn’t to keep information from him, but was rather to cause him to lose hope. The one thing that Sauron probably understood best about Denethor was his desire to maintain his power. Showing Aragorn with his banner and sword, essentially claiming the Kingship, would introduce to Denethor the thought of the lose-lose situation that The Gaffer mentioned. Sauron would basically be using the Stone on Denethor the same way as he always had. Very nice suggestion Gaffer. Last edited by CAB : 04-22-2006 at 12:34 PM. |
04-22-2006, 12:57 PM | #9 | |
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04-24-2006, 12:25 PM | #10 |
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Thanks.
I'd forgotten that Denethor had spoken to Faramir, to whom Frodo had talked about Aragorn and his lineage. Two things then: Frodo had also told him about Gandalf's death, yet Denethor did not seem surprised. Gandalf did not have the Ranger upstart with him, yet Denethor somehow knew that he was being brought along somehow by Gandalf. If we assume that Denethor could use the Palantir to look elsewhere, what exactly DID he know? He didn't seem aware of Rohan's imminent arrival, nor of the armies of the Ents raging about the place. Given that, could he be expected to know about Aragorn via the Palantir? |
04-25-2006, 01:31 AM | #11 | ||
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2.Certainly. I'll give an exerpt from another thread, where we at length discussed Denethor's actions and motives. I would suggest to read Gordis postings - some interesting observations (as usual ) The Pire of Denethor This is mine. Quote:
Possible, that Thorongil in some subtle way revealed his ancestry to Ecthelion, but Ecthelion in the same subtle way let him know that you need to have more substantial proves for claiming the throne of Gondor ,and not just a hearsay and some dubious shards of so called legendary sword. I think, that Denethor also have been told by his father who Aragorn really is . By that time Aragorn's popularity was very highone notch lower than Ectelion and he was expected by men to return to Minas-Tirith, where great honour awaited him, but since Ecthelion has been already quite old, and the ruling expected to be continued by his very brave and valiant son, Aragorn did not risk to proclame openly, causing of uprising, instead he decided to return back North whence he came from, promising upon his departure: "I come again to Gondor" ("And this time I'll be prepared!") "To all men it seemed a loss, unless it were to Denethor" So , Denethor knew, that he will be the last steward of Gondor. It was just the matter of time. Last edited by Olmer : 04-25-2006 at 01:49 AM. |
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04-25-2006, 12:11 PM | #12 |
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Thanks for that, don't know how I missed that discussion chapter going up!
So, Denether suspected who Thorongil was, and was probably right to be suspicious of Gandalf. But I don't think we have a clear indication of when he made the connection with Aragorn. Also, it's certain that he didn't have all that much control over what he saw with the palantir because: - he didn't know who was controlling the Black Fleet. - he knew very little about what was happening with the Ring/Fellowship/Boromir etc |
04-25-2006, 12:37 PM | #13 | ||
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04-25-2006, 05:03 PM | #14 | ||||
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But I believe, Denethor might have made the connection long before that. Perhaps Gandalf, when teaching young Faramir had made some hints about the Return of the King... Perhaps Denethor understood the meaning of the prophetic dream Faramir and Boromir had: Quote:
I believe Denethor knew outright WHAT sword was broken, and that that sword was a heirloom of the Northern line. I think, Denethor fully expected to find Elendil's sword and probably Thorongil as well in Imladris, even if he didn't understand what Isildur's Bane was - which I also doubt. I think he understood all the plot immediately, save the part about "the halfling" and the fate that the Wise reserved for the Ring -what rational man could expect such a folly? Therefore he sent his most trustworthy son, Captain of the White Tower, to Imladris to investigate, not the younger one, brainwashed by Gandalf. Quote:
As for the Black Fleet, probably Denethor saw it approaching and was so upset and dismayed that he didn't look closer - for that one had to concentrate, willing the stone to show the details. Same applies to Sauron, who was simply too intent on Minas Tirith, to spare time studying pirate faces . And Aragorn's banner was unfurled when the fleet approached the City, not before. By the way, in HOME VIII "the War of the Ring", in the earlier outline, Denethor did know that it was Aragorn who was coming on the black ships. In this draft Denethor's words "And even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails" were missing. In the draft Denethor accusedGandalf in Rath Dinen: "but I know your mind and its plots. Do I not see the fleets now coming up Anduin! So with the left hand you would use me as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to take my place". Here it is obvious that he does know who is aboard (with his left hand, one might suppose, Denethor gestures towards Osgiliath and with his right towards Pelargir); and he knew it from use of the Palantir, as is expressly stated in the outline C "Denethor has a palantir! He has seen the coming of Aragorn" In the final version of ROTK still some remnant of the original version persists (left hand&right hand), but here Denethor claims to have learned all from Pippin: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 04-25-2006 at 05:06 PM. |
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04-29-2006, 01:10 PM | #15 | ||
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To me it seems clear that Denethor knew who Thorongil was. I also think that Gordis is correct that Denethor probably understood enough of the prophetic dream to know that Thorongil was now returning. Gandalf at least seems to think that Denethor has this knowledge.
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Just a thought, maybe Gandalf sent the prophetic dream to Faramir and eventually Boromir. If Faramir, who was the main receiver of the dreams, journeyed to Minas Tirith with Aragorn, he would have been more easily convinced that Aragorn was the rightful king and he could have been a strong “herald” for him. Denethor may have perceived this chance and so sent Boromir instead. Gandalf has been known to put visions in peoples’ minds before. Quote:
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04-29-2006, 02:55 PM | #16 | |
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I am sure the dream was sent MOSTLY to Faramir (many times) and to Boromir only once, because, according to the PLAN, it had to be Faramir in the Fellowship . Denethor tried to twart this Plan, but Fate is Fate. Only problem I see is that when the Dream came to the "boys", and it was just before the assault on Osgiliath - in June 3018, Gandalf was far away in the Shire. |
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04-29-2006, 09:49 PM | #17 | ||
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The reason I thought about this possibility is that it would appear that the dream was sent by somebody. Who else would have the motivation and ability to do this? I suppose that one of the Valar or even Eru could have done it, but I am not sure why they would. Boromir’s (or Faramir’s) presence doesn’t seem to have been absolutely needed in the Fellowship (unless Boromir scaring Frodo was really that important.) Why did Gondor need to seek the “sword that was broken”? Aragorn likely was going to come to Minas Tirith anyway. One answer is that he needed someone to pave the way, especially when you consider that the well trained (by Gandalf) and non-heir Faramir was the main target of the dreams. Why would Gandalf be so concerned about Aragorn gaining his kingship? Quote:
Last edited by CAB : 04-29-2006 at 09:51 PM. |
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04-30-2006, 02:15 AM | #18 | |
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Yes, I agree with Gordis, Denethor deciphered the dream, but I think, he understood instantly what is "Isildur's bane" , for he did not strike me as a person who would be completely ignorant about the history of the founders of the city and country. He is more than sure that on the meeting in Imladris will be discussed matters of topmost importance for the welfare of Gondor. Because only EXTREMELY IMPORTANT and CONFIDENTIAL mission could tear the Captain of the White Tower and commander of the army away from the warfare's theatre. If Denethor really needed to CONSULT and INTERPRETE a DREAM, he would send Faramir. Considering circumstances of Faramir's upbringing and his susceptibility to external influence, his choice was wise, because Boromir would never be talked into submission, he would remember desperate Gondor's need, and in this mission he had the most probable chances to succeed “He would have remembered his father need…He would have brought me a mighty gift” (Denethor, quote from the“LOTR”, book III, chapter 4 ) |
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04-30-2006, 04:40 AM | #19 | ||||
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04-30-2006, 05:51 AM | #20 |
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I don't think Denethor knew truly what was going to be discussed in Rivendell. He may have guessed what the poem was about, the return of an heir to the Gondorean throne. But I doubt he could have known that that same heir was also present there and that the Ring was also the topic.
But I also think that regardless of that, the choice about which son went wasn't his. Boromir had set his sights on this mission and would not be pursuaded. And Denethor did let him go because he loved Boromir much and didn't want to put anything in his way.
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