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06-01-2004, 03:45 AM | #1 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
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The Lay of the Children of Hurin and Greek tragedy
I don't know if there was an old thread pertaining to this subject (I'm new to the Moot) but have you ever heard of Oedipus Rex, a Greek tragedy play by Sophocles?
It tells of this man Oedipus who was foretold to kill his father and marry his mother. So his father sends him away while he's a baby. Of course he ends up (not knowing) killing his REAL father and marrying his mother. Now when he finds out, his mother kills herself and he puts his eyes out. The play has a sequel (Antigone) that talks about Oedipus's daughter who goes out on a limb to ensure a proper burial for her brother who died in battle. Failing to do this, she kills herself. Doesn't this sound vaguely similar to the tale of Turin and his sister? What do you think? |
06-01-2004, 05:51 AM | #2 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
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It sure does. Surely Tolkien had Oedipus in mind when coming up with the story about Túrin. However there are many stories similar to the one about Oedipus. I don’t think Tolkien stole that many ideas from Greek plays and myth when he created his universe. He was probably more interested in myths and folktales from other regions than Greece and that there is more from Celtic, Saxon and Norse myth in his stories.
When writing about Túrin, Tolkien was probably quite inspired by the Finnish national epic Kalevala (he was very found of the Finnish language and its poetry). In Kalevala, there is a story about the boy Kullervo who seduces a girl who turns out to be his sister. Just like Niniel, the girl throws herself into a river when she finds out who Kullervo really is. Eventually Kullervo takes his life too. Some elements in the story about Túrin are also likely to be derived from the Icelandic 'Saga of the Volsungs', where Sigurd fights and kills the dragon Fafner and at the end, Sigurd stabs himself with his sword. Welcome to the Moot, Beren3000!
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ Last edited by Jonathan : 06-01-2004 at 08:44 AM. |
06-01-2004, 07:11 AM | #3 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
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Thanks for your welcome.
I've read a lot about the Kalevala (sp.?) and the Finnish influence on Tolkien's work in general. But have you actually read the Kalevala or that tale of Sigurd? If so where did you find them? |
06-01-2004, 09:06 AM | #4 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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I have only read extracts from both works. I'm sure you can find some extracts if you do a search on Google.
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
06-02-2004, 02:45 AM | #5 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Green Bay
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Last edited by Stephen : 06-02-2004 at 02:48 AM. |
06-02-2004, 11:55 AM | #6 | ||||||||||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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I'm a big fan of the greek mythos. This is a post that I did on another forum a long time ago.
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From Oedipus Rex: Quote:
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In a way Oedipus is innocent because he is taken by "fate". He was a hero to the people of Thebes because he solved the riddle of the Sphinx. There was a "plague" in Thebes an Oedipus as King send Creon to investigate what could help the city. When Creon returns he says to Oedipus: Quote:
Like Túrin, it was Oedipus pride that doomed him, but as we shall see, he was already doomed. This is what the sage Teiresias told the King Oedipus: Quote:
This is what the Oracle told Oedipus: Quote:
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When Oedipus finally learns the truth: Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-02-2004, 01:52 PM | #7 | |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
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Quote:
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06-02-2004, 06:18 PM | #8 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Quote:
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-02-2004, 06:25 PM | #9 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
Join Date: Oct 2002
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But then, his pride wouldn't have had that much effect without Morgoth's curse.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
06-03-2004, 03:28 AM | #10 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
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Exactly!
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06-03-2004, 09:11 AM | #11 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
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You would have to atribute some of the events that take place with Turin to free will though. So, I don't think that everything bad that happened to him accounts to the curse, but some prideful, bad decisions. For instance: leaving Doriath after the death of Saeros, influencing Orodreth to change Finrod's defensive policies and fight more openly by building the bridge over the Narog, which became Nargothrond's certian doom. I think we see the effects of the curse in things that were more out of Turin's control, such as: killing Beleg, meeting Gwindor and being brought to Nargothrond, the marriage between him and Nienor, his failure to save Finduilus. However, without Turin's prideful choices, and the curse of Morgoth coming together, events would have turned out differently. They seem to have fed one another.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
06-03-2004, 04:28 PM | #12 | |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
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06-03-2004, 06:07 PM | #13 | ||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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From the Published Silmarillion
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-03-2004, 06:14 PM | #14 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-03-2004, 06:35 PM | #15 | ||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-03-2004, 06:42 PM | #16 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-04-2004, 10:33 AM | #17 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-04-2004, 10:48 AM | #18 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
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But, Maedhros, in all the history of ME, a lot of people suffered hardships. You find Beren having to face Morgoth, Aragorn having to face Sauron and Frodo carries the Ring etc...But eventually, Illuvatar creates some sort of reward for them. Beren finds Luthien after death, Aragorn marries Arwen and Frodo sails to Valinor. But what's Turin's reward? He NEVER experienced happiness in his life (except with Nienor, which eventually aggravated his misery). Do you think that Illuvatar wouldn't have pitied him?
IMO, his life was all ruined by the curse (Or rather by the simultaneous actions of the curse and his pride as SGH pointed out). His free will had very little part to play in that, if at all. |
06-04-2004, 10:55 AM | #19 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
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Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-04-2004, 11:22 AM | #20 | |||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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1. Túrin could have returned to Doriath but he chose not to. 2. Túrin could have kept his visor when he faced Glaurung but he didn't and therefore was defeated by him. Túrin could have chose differently but he didn't. If Morgoth could control so easily Men, why didn't he curse more of them? He could have cursed those who rebelled against him, but he didn't. Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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