01-05-2004, 10:42 AM | #1 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?
Here's what always strikes me about "The Silmarillion": It seems like the Valar were sent to Arda to prevent Melkor from ruining it (in addition to fulfilling the creation of it). Instead, it seems like they despaired at his destruction - and set up their own little section where they would make sure and run things right - and the rest could just go to pot.
When the Elves came along, the response of the Valar was to bring them over to this sheltered land they had created - instead of preventing Melkor from corrupting the land where they were placed (and, perhaps the Elves themselves). I never quite understood this. Melkor was greater than any single Vala... but if they took him on together, he didn't stand a chance - as they proved at the end of the First Age. Why didn't they just defeat him from the start? Or at least 'take him out' once the Firstborn came along? Of course... then we wouldn't have a story. Were the Valar doing the 'right' thing though - what Eru would have wanted them to do? Or were they proving to be as 'fallable' in their own way as Elves and Men by not always doing the correct thing? Didn't they always have responsibility for all of Arda? And did they fail in this responsibility by allowing Melkor to go unchecked? (In fact, along these lines, it could be argued that the rebellion of the Elves against the Valar ultimately induced them to do what they should have done to begin with.) |
01-05-2004, 12:32 PM | #2 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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Re: Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?
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01-05-2004, 12:36 PM | #3 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Re: Re: Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?
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01-05-2004, 01:00 PM | #4 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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Re: Re: Re: Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?
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01-05-2004, 01:25 PM | #5 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977
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01-05-2004, 01:37 PM | #6 |
The Insufferable
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I've always thought they were. I'm more of an opinion that Feanor was right, and that the Valar foolishly kept the elves from their birthright, and in the process set the stage for most of the misery in middle earth's history. They should have blasted Melkor into the void from the get-go, and /then/ gone about remaking the world without his interference.
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01-05-2004, 02:01 PM | #7 |
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I vote yes also. They were shirking their duty.
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01-05-2004, 03:26 PM | #8 |
Elven Warrior
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I think they also felt that even Morgoth had a right to live in Arda, and that they still held out some hope that he may eventually have changed his ways, which was demostrated by their releasing of him from Mandos in the First Age.
The Valar (Manwe in particular) were shown to be grief stricken when great, promising, individuals (namely Feanor) fell to ill deeds. Morgoth's fall from grace must have been at least as painful to them, especially to Manwe since they were 'brothers'. Therefore I don't think we should discount emotional factors when determining why they did anything when it came to dealing (or not dealing in this case) with Morgoth.
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. |
01-05-2004, 07:17 PM | #9 |
AngAdan
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Yes, it appears that they seriously failed in their duties and amde many bad strategic choices.
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01-05-2004, 07:25 PM | #10 | |
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(EDIT: btw - no offense taken if it was - and hope you'll take none if it was not) Last edited by Valandil : 01-05-2004 at 07:31 PM. |
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01-05-2004, 08:32 PM | #11 |
AngAdan
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No sarcasm. Their principal charge was to make a home for the Children of Illuvatar, yep they often gave higher priority to their own abodes and comforts than to provide a minimally safe world for the children. How could their ever be a worse strategic choice than releasing Morgoth from captivity? The 2nd worse choice earlier, "and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Iluvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar". Huh?!? How could it possibly be safer to rend the earth after the children were place in it than before? Beside them not yet being around to fall into flaming chasms, You would likely have time to repair it again before they appeared.
JRRT does start making this more sensible in HoME "Myths Trasnformed" by increasing Melkor's power relative to the Valar, so that they feared they could not defeat him, yet this do not change their charge and duty. Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 06-15-2017 at 01:20 PM. |
01-05-2004, 08:39 PM | #12 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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plus, not only did the Valar want to bring the Elves to Aman, they hardly ever cared about the race of Men. They are both the Children of Iluvatar and IMO should be treated equally! Who knows, if they would have looked out for Men more, perhaps Men wouldn't have fallen to Melkor's temptations in the first place.
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01-05-2004, 10:12 PM | #13 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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in the early version of lost tales there's a passage about the valar not being able to achieve the greatness they could have, or something to that account, by not taking on melkor when they could have... i believe it is mentioned in conjuction with the elves not achieveing their greatness either, for their own shortcomings... the valar of those days were much more like the emotionally fallible gods we see in greek mythology... they also seemed to be much more a part of middle earth... it was a process of learning and growing for them as much as it was for iluvatar's other children
i think jrrt tried to change this later and make them more "godly" and "above the fray"... so he had to rationalize their decisions in a new way, but the story elements lingered and he had to come up with some reason for their holding off on melkor... so he added the bit about not wanting to rend the earth again... though you almost get the feeling that they we're punishing the elves who left... waiting to help until they were at almost utter defeat... maybe they were just trying to build character and, in the end, they did quite a bit of rending anyway * nice new pic arien! *
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01-06-2004, 05:54 AM | #15 | ||
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The Valar were far from flawless. As several posters here have pointed out, they made many bad choices. Perhaps it is the word 'Gods' that mislead us to think they are without flaws. But we should remember that they were made of no 'higher' or nobler stuff than Melkor was.
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01-06-2004, 10:23 AM | #16 | |||
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From Vinyar Tengwar: Ósanwe-kenta Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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01-06-2004, 12:22 PM | #17 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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I guess overall I wish Tolkien expanded more on the nature of Men so as to clear up alot of my questions about their fate but oh well |
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01-06-2004, 02:50 PM | #18 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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on mankind... you do get the feeling that they were outside the realm of the valar, so i can understand them not getting involved to some extent... and of course, in the end, they did help out mankind through the istari
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01-07-2004, 12:21 AM | #19 |
Elven Warrior
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Some great discussion on this topic. I especially liked the posts about the Valar not being certain if they could or should govern Men (Artanis) and about the "folly" of the Valar (Maedhros).
My response to the question is that they were not shirking their duties, but they were not very effective in their task, either. It didn't seem the Valar were really prepared to deal with any kind of discord. As much as Melkor was the mightiest Vala, the thing that really seemed to set him apart was his willingness to go against the grain. The rest of the Valar seemed to seek harmony at all costs, and they didn't have any idea how to deal with anything else (especially Melkor). For that reason, the Valar were more focused on quieting the source of discord than on really doing anything about it. |
01-07-2004, 12:06 PM | #20 | |
The Tall
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There is the Tale of Adanel, in which there is a tradition among Men that at first, they could hear the voice of Eru but they rejected it and instead followed either Melkor or his servants.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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