Balrogs: How large are they?

Gilrond · 09-05-2002, 10:38 PM

Balrogs

Excuse me, but I was wondering on the size of Balrogs.

In the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Tolkien implies that Balrogs are somewhat smaller than trolls, because they fight with Elven lords, such as Fingon.

In the fleeing from Gondolin, Glorfindel battles a Balrog on the peaks, and again this passage implies that the fire-demons are a dozen feet tall or so.

In the film, the Balrog exceeds the size of a cave-troll, but that may be that the demon had grown in power and in size waiting in the Mines.

Please reply? Thanx.

GandalfTheWhite · 09-05-2002, 11:12 PM

sounds bout right as far as im concerned, as far as the movie goes though ur theory sounds good, but there is always the possibility its just for dramatic effect

Ñólendil · 09-06-2002, 10:02 AM

The texts you are reading from The Silmarillion are derived from old versions of the Balrogs from The Book of Lost Tales, where they are verily only man-sized and were a cavalry force. The relevent passages in The Bridge of Khazad-dûm in Book II of The Lord of the Rings is the only detailed narrative we have of the later Balrogs.

In this, the Balrog is seen as a vague dark shape within the outer darkness all around it, "of man-shape maybe, yet greater". No other description of it's size is given.

I think the Balrog in the movie was absurdly large.

Blackheart · 09-06-2002, 02:50 PM

Balrogs are Maiar.

Maiar can change their shape, and assume different forms.

Balrogs can change their shape, and assume different forms.

Size depends on shape and form.

Balrogs are as big as they want to be. (supposedly limited by physical restraints loosely woven into a reality based on metaphysical manifestation of a spiritual being)

Radagast The Brown · 09-07-2002, 04:13 AM

Quote:

originally posted by BlackHeart
Balrogs can change their shape, and assume different forms.

Size depends on shape and form.

Balrogs can't change their shape (or their size), but they could've (in the past)...when they wanted to be balrogs they they become to be what they wanted to be, but they stucked in this shape (like Gandalf in LOTR).

Gilrond · 09-07-2002, 05:53 PM

Thank you for your answers!

Blackheart · 09-08-2002, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Balrogs can't change their shape (or their size), but they could've (in the past)...when they wanted to be balrogs they they become to be what they wanted to be, but they stucked in this shape (like Gandalf in LOTR).

Actually there's no text to say that Balrogs were "stuck" in a particular shape, unlike Melkor, or Sauron.

Though they were likely limited to shadow and fire as to the form of their manifestation, theres no reason they couldn't manifest in a multitude of forms, other than sheer habit of course.

Radagast The Brown · 09-09-2002, 06:43 AM

Quote:

originally posted by Blackheart
Actually there's no text to say that Balrogs were "stuck" in a particular shape, unlike Melkor, or Sauron.

Though they were likely limited to shadow and fire as to the form of their manifestation, theres no reason they couldn't manifest in a multitude of forms, other than sheer habit of course.

But you can't know as well if they could've or couldn't have the ability to switch bodies. Therefor, I can't be sure I'm right, but you can't be sure too if you're right. (that mean we need more information about balrogs

)

BeardofPants · 09-09-2002, 08:30 AM

It depends on how you interpret the text in FOTR. I personally believe that they were man-shaped, surrounded by dark flame, and shadow. And I happen to think that they had a great degree of control of the flame, and the shadow, and could consequently control their size, rather than having a fixed rigid shape: thus the illusion of wings, and size.

Blackheart · 09-09-2002, 01:45 PM

Changing bodies? Heavens.

I said changing shape, not bodies.

If your body is composed of fire and darkness, it's going to be pretty malleable anyway.

Misty Mountain Goat · 10-10-2002, 07:20 AM

Possably the Balrogs, because of there demigod stature, vairy in size though how powerful or how old think about it.

Millane · 10-10-2002, 07:26 AM

i agree they could grow and become more powerful as they grow... remember there is a pretty large time fram between when fingon battles one and Gandalf battles one
and also not all Balrogs are the same size * just a guess* and the one that Fingon battles is different to the one in Khazad Dum...

Ithildin · 10-10-2002, 01:33 PM

As far as changing sizes goes, in "The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm", it seems that the Balrog changed sizes even during the short time that the Fellowship saw it.

"The Balrog reached the bridge...halted again, facing (Gandalf), and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings....The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."

As far as how large it was, if I correctly understand the lay-out of the area they were in, from wall to wall would have been a large area for its wings to cover. It also says that Gandalf seemed small then compared to the Balrog.

As far as changing bodies goes, from "The White Rider" in the TT, (Gandalf speaking about the Balrog),

"His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake...(a little later in the narrative)...Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame."

I'm not sure if that actually means that it changes bodies, though. It almost seems that the Balrog couldn't burn underwater, but flamed whenever there wasn't something to quench it. It also seems that the "thing of slime" was man-shaped....

"Ever he *clutched* me and ever I hewed him....and I pursued him, clutching his *heel*." (Emphasis added.)

My guess is that the "thing of slime" was the core of the Balrog -- the "of man-shape maybe, yet greater" part -- and that the flame and shadow were what enabled it to appear to change shape and size.

Strange-Looking Lurker · 10-10-2002, 02:11 PM

"My guess is that the "thing of slime" was the core of the Balrog -- the "of man-shape maybe, yet greater" part -- and that the flame and shadow were what enabled it to appear to change shape and size."

Which would then explain how Gandalf was able to kill the Balrog. It doesn't seem that it would hurt something made of pure flame to hit a mountian side, but if he had an inner core, it would make sense.

Blackheart · 10-10-2002, 02:34 PM

Did he actually kill it? or did he merely destroy it's body, and remove it's ability to manifest?

It was a maiar also. Perhaps it's still lurking around, gathering energy to reclaok itself in fire and darkness....

Wayfarer · 10-10-2002, 03:23 PM

Ah! But most maiur couldn't regain their power after the lost it.

Sauron could-because of the ring, and gandalf was restored by divine intervention, but could all maia do the same?

The texts indicate no-once the ring was gone, sauron was powerless, and the same went for saruman when he lost his staff, and later when he was killed.

I think the balrog probably lost his power irretrievably.

Incidentally, who balrogs are said to fight really doesn't make a difference. Fingolfin fought melkor, who was described as mountainous in size...

Blackheart · 10-10-2002, 04:05 PM

Actually, if avari can drift around, houseless, waiting to possess a body, I see no reason why a balrog couldn't do the same, and then begin to build a form closer to their true nature.

Wayfarer · 10-10-2002, 04:27 PM

That's true...

But you must remember that incarnation for Elves and Maia was different.

The elves had a physical body that they simply animated... it stayed around after they died, and they could take another one.

An incarnate ainur actually formed his body out of energy-he not only animated it, he created it. And so the possibilities for reincarnation are different.

Blackheart · 10-11-2002, 12:20 PM

So?

We'll build a large evil fire, and invite him to come live in it.

Then we'll have out own pet balrog.

Wayfarer · 10-11-2002, 12:28 PM

Hell, I'm game.

09-05-2002, 10:38 PM	#1
Gilrond Enting Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 52	Balrogs: How large are they? Balrogs Excuse me, but I was wondering on the size of Balrogs. In the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Tolkien implies that Balrogs are somewhat smaller than trolls, because they fight with Elven lords, such as Fingon. In the fleeing from Gondolin, Glorfindel battles a Balrog on the peaks, and again this passage implies that the fire-demons are a dozen feet tall or so. In the film, the Balrog exceeds the size of a cave-troll, but that may be that the demon had grown in power and in size waiting in the Mines. Please reply? Thanx.

09-05-2002, 11:12 PM	#2
GandalfTheWhite Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 297	sounds bout right as far as im concerned, as far as the movie goes though ur theory sounds good, but there is always the possibility its just for dramatic effect __________________ "Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council." -Gandalf The Road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can, Pursuing it with eager feet, Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet. And whither then? I cannot say. "He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom." -Gandalf "A thing is about to happen which has not happened since the Elder Days: the Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Gandalf

09-06-2002, 10:02 AM	#3
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	The texts you are reading from The Silmarillion are derived from old versions of the Balrogs from The Book of Lost Tales, where they are verily only man-sized and were a cavalry force. The relevent passages in The Bridge of Khazad-dûm in Book II of The Lord of the Rings is the only detailed narrative we have of the later Balrogs. In this, the Balrog is seen as a vague dark shape within the outer darkness all around it, "of man-shape maybe, yet greater". No other description of it's size is given. I think the Balrog in the movie was absurdly large. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

09-06-2002, 02:50 PM	#4
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Balrogs are Maiar. Maiar can change their shape, and assume different forms. Balrogs can change their shape, and assume different forms. Size depends on shape and form. Balrogs are as big as they want to be. (supposedly limited by physical restraints loosely woven into a reality based on metaphysical manifestation of a spiritual being) __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

09-09-2002, 08:30 AM	#9
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	It depends on how you interpret the text in FOTR. I personally believe that they were man-shaped, surrounded by dark flame, and shadow. And I happen to think that they had a great degree of control of the flame, and the shadow, and could consequently control their size, rather than having a fixed rigid shape: thus the illusion of wings, and size. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-07-2002, 05:53 PM	#6
Gilrond Enting Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 52	Thank you for your answers!

09-09-2002, 01:45 PM	#10
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Changing bodies? Heavens. I said changing shape, not bodies. If your body is composed of fire and darkness, it's going to be pretty malleable anyway. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

10-10-2002, 07:20 AM	#11
Misty Mountain Goat Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Victoria, Australia Posts: 19	Possably the Balrogs, because of there demigod stature, vairy in size though how powerful or how old think about it. Last edited by Misty Mountain Goat : 10-10-2002 at 07:24 AM.

10-10-2002, 07:26 AM	#12
Millane The Dude Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: at the altar of my ego Posts: 1,685	i agree they could grow and become more powerful as they grow... remember there is a pretty large time fram between when fingon battles one and Gandalf battles one and also not all Balrogs are the same size * just a guess* and the one that Fingon battles is different to the one in Khazad Dum...

10-10-2002, 01:33 PM	#13
Ithildin Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: I am lost. I have gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait for me. Posts: 18	As far as changing sizes goes, in "The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm", it seems that the Balrog changed sizes even during the short time that the Fellowship saw it. "The Balrog reached the bridge...halted again, facing (Gandalf), and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings....The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..." As far as how large it was, if I correctly understand the lay-out of the area they were in, from wall to wall would have been a large area for its wings to cover. It also says that Gandalf seemed small then compared to the Balrog. As far as changing bodies goes, from "The White Rider" in the TT, (Gandalf speaking about the Balrog), "His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake...(a little later in the narrative)...Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame." I'm not sure if that actually means that it changes bodies, though. It almost seems that the Balrog couldn't burn underwater, but flamed whenever there wasn't something to quench it. It also seems that the "thing of slime" was man-shaped.... "Ever he clutched me and ever I hewed him....and I pursued him, clutching his heel." (Emphasis added.) My guess is that the "thing of slime" was the core of the Balrog -- the "of man-shape maybe, yet greater" part -- and that the flame and shadow were what enabled it to appear to change shape and size.

10-10-2002, 02:11 PM	#14
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	"My guess is that the "thing of slime" was the core of the Balrog -- the "of man-shape maybe, yet greater" part -- and that the flame and shadow were what enabled it to appear to change shape and size." Which would then explain how Gandalf was able to kill the Balrog. It doesn't seem that it would hurt something made of pure flame to hit a mountian side, but if he had an inner core, it would make sense. __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

10-10-2002, 02:34 PM	#15
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Did he actually kill it? or did he merely destroy it's body, and remove it's ability to manifest? It was a maiar also. Perhaps it's still lurking around, gathering energy to reclaok itself in fire and darkness.... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

10-10-2002, 03:23 PM	#16
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Ah! But most maiur couldn't regain their power after the lost it. Sauron could-because of the ring, and gandalf was restored by divine intervention, but could all maia do the same? The texts indicate no-once the ring was gone, sauron was powerless, and the same went for saruman when he lost his staff, and later when he was killed. I think the balrog probably lost his power irretrievably. Incidentally, who balrogs are said to fight really doesn't make a difference. Fingolfin fought melkor, who was described as mountainous in size... __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

10-10-2002, 04:05 PM	#17
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Actually, if avari can drift around, houseless, waiting to possess a body, I see no reason why a balrog couldn't do the same, and then begin to build a form closer to their true nature. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

10-10-2002, 04:27 PM	#18
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	That's true... But you must remember that incarnation for Elves and Maia was different. The elves had a physical body that they simply animated... it stayed around after they died, and they could take another one. An incarnate ainur actually formed his body out of energy-he not only animated it, he created it. And so the possibilities for reincarnation are different. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

10-11-2002, 12:20 PM	#19
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	So? We'll build a large evil fire, and invite him to come live in it. Then we'll have out own pet balrog. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

10-11-2002, 12:28 PM	#20
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Hell, I'm game. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

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