10-27-2002, 02:55 PM | #1 | |
The Tall
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Where the Teleri Ships Irreplaceable?
When Olwë refuses to help Fëanor and the Noldor he states:
From the Published Silmarillion: Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-27-2002, 03:17 PM | #2 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Why couldn't Feänor make more silmarils? I think that the Teleri lacked something essential to make new ships as wonderful as the older. Be it knowledge or magic. Even Yavanna couldn't remake her trees. I guess some things can only be made once.
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10-27-2002, 05:48 PM | #3 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Re: Where the Teleri Ships Irreplaceable?
Quote:
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10-27-2002, 10:40 PM | #4 | ||
The Tall
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Quote:
Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-28-2002, 02:57 AM | #5 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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In another thread (Turgon's folly) it is mentioned that the Elves put parts of their own spirit into their creative work, like the Silmarils and the three rings. We may assume this also is valid for the Teleri and the building of their ships. Then it is not a wonder that these great works could not be repeated.
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10-28-2002, 05:22 AM | #6 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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If I remember correctly I believe Ulmo or Ossë taught the Teleri how to build those ships. Maybe the Teleri could not built ships equal in beauty to the first ones without their help.
I don't think the Teleri perfected their shipbuilding art. To me they seemed pleased enough with the ships they had.
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10-28-2002, 07:43 AM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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could be that each ship of the Teleri is defferent, and they don't want the Noldor to destroy their ships. And I bet they didn't want to help the Noldor to rebel the Valar.
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10-28-2002, 10:13 AM | #8 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-28-2002, 11:39 AM | #9 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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10-28-2002, 12:11 PM | #10 |
im quite stupid
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How big were these ships they must of been pretty big.
Maybe this is one of these things where it wouldnt make literary sence for them to say you cannot take out ships for we will be able to make some more wouldnt make much of a story if it all made sence
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot Last edited by Sween : 10-28-2002 at 12:12 PM. |
10-28-2002, 02:49 PM | #11 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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I think sub-creation is supposed to be an act that uses up part of oneself-the ring is part of Sauron, the ships are part of the Teleri-destroying them actually ruined part of the teleri
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10-28-2002, 05:54 PM | #12 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-28-2002, 05:59 PM | #13 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-28-2002, 07:00 PM | #14 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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They are like the silmarils-sub-creative works, and therefore unreproducable.
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"Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom" |
10-28-2002, 07:15 PM | #15 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-28-2002, 07:34 PM | #16 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Life in Middle Earth
One difficulty, Maedhros, is you're assuming ship construction similar to ship construction on the Planet Earth. If it was ship construction as it is here, I think you'd be right. But we would never speak of our ships' destruction as they did of theirs. Remember, it was called "The rape of the ships of the Teleri." We wouldn't call the burning of our ships a rape. Calling it this implies that it is something more than mere wood and craftsmanship that is being destroyed.
Throughout Tolkien's writing in Middle Earth and Valinor, you find personality and life in inanimate objects. Gandalf and Aragorn don't like speaking of certain things at night, and that isn't because they expect some evil creature is around. Weapons, like Túrin's sword, can speak and have will. The ships of the Teleri, I believe, have the same sort of power. The Teleri created the ships once, in one work of splendor. I think that life is assumed in the ships of the Teleri, and they were incredibly precious to their builders. It was one glorious act that cannot be repeated. If it was reconstructible, it would diminish its glory. I don't think that there is any physical reason that is stated in the books that denies the possibility to reconstruct such things. But, like the Rings of Power, they cannot be reproduced. It is something that shines for a while, and which must be protected if it won't fall into darkness. |
10-28-2002, 07:59 PM | #17 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I like your summary, Lief! That's exactly what I wanted to say, but I couldn't put it into words. You did so, and very well, IMHO
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-28-2002, 12:13 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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Very eloquently stated Lief Erikson. I agree with your asessment.
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11-28-2002, 02:00 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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Thanks R*an and Keith K .
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11-28-2002, 04:51 PM | #20 | ||||
Hobbit
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Re: Life in Middle Earth
Quote:
I would like to add up a few thoughts. In general the theme of (sub)creation and creator's rights and responsibilities seems to be the central in Tolkien's writing. I believe, Telerin ships also have a very strong symbolic meaning, alongside with the Silmarills and even the Light of the Trees. There are three creators here, Yavanna (who created the Light of the Trees), Feanor (who created Silmarills) and the Teleri (as a group) who created the ships. What is special in the situation is that no one of the creators is able to repeat their creative deed again. For example, Yavanna says: Quote:
Quote:
Maedhros has already quoted Olwe's words about the ships, but I would like to recall this quote again: Quote:
First, creative process is a great equaliser. Yavanna, Feanor and the Teleri have very similar feelings about their creations. Bearing in mind, that the ultimate creator is Iluvatar, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that an act of creation equals creator (be it Ainu, Elf, or Man) to the One. Second, I believe, it's about creator's right and responsibility. IMHO Tolkien hints that the creator, and creator only, has any right over his creation. No one tried to force Feanor to unlock the Silmarills, even though the matter concerned a grave danger for the whole Arda. It is interesting to compare, how Feanor himself behaves in a similar situation. Although the Teleri make their feelings about the ships quite clear, Feanor not only insists, he kills his fellow-Elves to seize the result of their creative process! He, if anyone, ought to have known how a creator feels about the results of his work. I believe that Feanor's actions, by contrast, were a wicked act of ultimate selfishness. No wonder that he was permanently denied re-embodiment by Iluvatar himself. Just my two cents
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