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12-24-2002, 03:36 AM | #1 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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The Silmarillion: Ch.1 Of the beginning of days
Time is up to discuss Quenta Silmarillion Chapter 1: Of the beginning of days This chapter tells the history about the rulers of the Earth and their shaping of the Earth in the beginning of days, and their war against Melkor. There is also section dealing with the gift from Iluvatar to Men.
Other useful reading would be: HoME4 The Shaping of Middle-Earth: Ch.V Ambarkanta (there are maps here, unfortunately I don't have access to a scanner now, perhaps somone else could scan them?) Ch.VI The earliest annals of Valinor, up to V.Y.2000, with notes and commentaries HoME5 The Lost Road: Ch.II The later annals of Valinor, up to V.Y.1980, with notes and commentaries. Ch.VI Quenta Silmarillion part 2: Of Valinor and the two trees HoME10 Morgoth's Ring: Part 2: The Annals of Aman, up to year 1050. Part 3: The later Quenta Silmarillion, the first phase, ch.2: Of Valinor and the two trees Part 5: Myths transformed Pictures worth looking at (all from Rolozo Tolkien): Ted Nasmith: The Sea Ted Nasmith: The Light of Valinor on the Western Sea Ted Nasmith: The first dawn of the sun Ted Nasmith: The lamp of the Valar
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12-24-2002, 04:06 AM | #2 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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There should be some interesting topics to discuss here.
1. I do not quite understand why Melkor could withstand all the rest of the Valar in the First War, before the coming of Tulkas. Melkor was the mightiest among them, but Manwe was mighty also, and the allied forces of the Valar and their supporting spirits should have conquered Melkor. Why would Tulkas make such a difference, even if he was a great warrior? 2. When Yavanna made the two trees in Valinor, what was her motive? The marring of Arda had taken place. Did the Valar wish to preserve what had been, not wanting the foretold history to proceed? Was this a sign of weakness on their part? From Myths transformed: Quote:
To be continued ....
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12-24-2002, 07:49 AM | #3 | |
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Continued:
4. It is said of the Valar that Quote:
5. Why do you think Melkor has ever feared Men?
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12-24-2002, 08:50 AM | #4 | |
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And men would never fade, nor leave ME for Valinor.
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12-25-2002, 11:49 PM | #5 |
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I think maybe Melkor feared Men because it seems that they were the ones most like him. Maybe he was afraid of what they might be capable of if they worked together. Imagine if he hadn't been chained and the Numenoreans hadn't been corrupted. They probably would have been able to wreak havoc on him, since they were prepared to assail the Valar in Valinor.
Tulkas was the mightiest in strength and deeds, so he was able to take care of Melkor. I think what kept him from being one of the greatest was his lack of interest. For some reason, I think of him like Tom Bombadil -- mighty, but unconcerned. I'm not quite sure why I think of him that way.
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12-26-2002, 06:31 PM | #6 | ||||||
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12-26-2002, 11:08 PM | #7 |
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Regarding Tulkas: Khamul, I like your comment about Tom Bombadil. I think it is because of the references to Tulkas' laughter. Tulkas exhibits extremes of anger/force and laughter/joy. The rest of the Valar are more singular in nature. Manwe '..rules all to peace', he prefers the status quo. Tulkas is more resilient to the evil of Melkor. As Earniel said, he likes to fight. Can't you just see Tulkas roaring in laughter after a fight, either because of the joy of the confrontation, or its result. No wonder Melkor hated him.
About the 2 trees: Like Earniel said, I think that Yavanna wanted to replace the 2 lamps. But she improved them. Not only was the light remade, but the fluctuations of 'living light' gave rise to time. As well, the light could be collected in vats in case the source was destroyed. The trees were also in the safest place, to protect them from destruction. Regarding Valinor: I think it was important for the Valar to have a safe haven, away from the effects of Melkor. Melkor had tainted Arda and they couldn't build a retreat there. Too few Valar had first hand knowledge what was transpiring in Arda. And I also think that they were afraid to cause more damage to the lands. About the counselling of the Valar: I'm a bit rusty, but didn't Ulmo or Osse give assistance to the elves via the rivers? I'm sure someone will find the example. Why does Melkor fear men? I think Melkor sees them not only as a foe, but as a rival. Men can crave power and they can be corrupted. They can aspire and be driven to achieve great things. They are somewhat unpredictable, their nature is not as cut and dried as the elves. Melkor's greatest evil is the tainting of the gift of mortality. Because of that, men will forever see death with a negative connotation.
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12-26-2002, 11:38 PM | #8 |
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I think too that as long as there was an alliance between Elves and Men that Morgoth had even a greater fear. The Sil says something like: "To corrupt and destroy whatever arose new and fair was ever the chief design of Morgoth and to ever make Men the foes of the Eldar. This was never wholly achieved though." [Quote from memory] I find it interesting that that is exactly how he achieved his purpose with the Elves in Valinor before the Exile. You would have thought that someone would have realized what he was up to the second time.
I think his fear of Men though was from some uncertianty. He knew the Eldar, and he knew their ways. They were closer to the Valar in spirit than any other creatures. Men and their ways were more of a mystery, so more chancey for him to deal with them. It would be like approaching a pack of dogs and hope they don't go for your throat. But, I think his fear of Men was at its height while Men and Elves were allied.
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12-27-2002, 11:58 AM | #9 | |
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About Morgoth's fearing men, I've got another possibility to throw out. It could be simply because he doesn't understand Ilúvatar's purpose with men. Men came into the world, were there for a small amount of time, and then pass away. He doesn't know why they pass away, or what happens to them after death. Nor does he know for what purpose Ilúvatar has called them into being, and that worries him. The elves he has lived long with, and he understands his adversaries there. The Maiar and Valar likewise he can comprehend, but this is throwing a wrench into the works of a shape he can't get. And when one doesn't understand something, but knows that it is called into being by your enemy, one fears it. |
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12-27-2002, 06:10 PM | #10 | |
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Quote:
"Melko did not fear Men" pg 218 and "Melko...............can suggest evil to Men......." pg 282 and he states Melkor can easily use them to spread " hurt and damage and evil in the world."
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12-28-2002, 12:41 AM | #11 |
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Aren't Melko from the Book of Lost Tales and Melkor from the Silmarillion different people? Admittedly, I've never read the Book of Lost Tales, but for some reason I'm under this impression.
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12-28-2002, 01:58 AM | #12 | ||||
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I just brought the Silmarillion today and read this chapter, so I'm happy to discuss this. I havn't read the Sil for a while, so please bear with me.
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12-28-2002, 03:09 AM | #13 | |
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12-28-2002, 05:47 AM | #14 | |
Enting
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Originally posted by Kham
Quote:
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12-28-2002, 11:35 AM | #15 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-28-2002, 02:51 PM | #16 | ||||
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12-28-2002, 03:38 PM | #17 |
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About Telperion and Laurelin, the two trees: Yavanna did not make them all by herself, Nienna should get a bit of the honour as well, as she watered the mould with her tears. I like to think that her sorrow contributed greatly to the beauty of those trees.
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12-28-2002, 08:08 PM | #18 |
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Isn't the point the Morgoth used Arda-it was "Morgoth's Ring" making assaults on him dangerous to Middle Earth-but actaully weakening Morgoth to the point where Sauron could be more powerful than Morgoth. This isn't stated explicitly in the Silmarillion, but it was on Tolkien's mind in his old age, and shapes the reactions of the Valar.
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12-28-2002, 11:55 PM | #19 |
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Thanks to everyone for the clarification.
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12-31-2002, 08:53 AM | #20 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Hey, where is everybody? We haven't finished this yet, you know.
In Morgoth's Ring it is said that Melkor/Morgoth put forth his power into the physical Earth, and thus marred it, but by that deed his spirit was greatly diminished, and he became bound to his physical shape. Now the Valar also used their power to create things: Varda made the stars, Yavanna made the Two Trees and all that grows in Middle-Earth, Aule wrought the lamps and so on, and all the Valar laboured to shape the Earth. Wouldn't this imply that the spirits of the Valar also would diminish? What do you think?
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