01-16-2009, 02:04 AM | #1 |
Sapling
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Wraiths Before the Ring
Alright, I know this is like... an age old topic, I'm sure, but I want to get as close to a solid answer as I can get with this thing. This is one of the biggest things in all of Middle-Earth for me; both in terms of interest and importance, and how much it bugs me not knowing. What were the names and origins of the Nine??
Here's what I've got. Please contribute, either for or against whatever I might suggest. I know all Nine will never be named in terms of canon-iness, but I'm making an attempt to fill a void here. This is what I got (keep in mind that I'm not a Tolkien-atic Know-it-all ...I'm just a fan who wants to know more). Here it goes!! The Witch-King, I think, would've been Tar-Surion. Khamul is Khamul, this we know. Then I bring into question Gothmog. I'd like to believe that he was the third wraith. Not one of the Numenoreans, no doubt, but one of the other wraiths. Other than these few I ain't got much on the subject, but I'm hoping a few hardcore Tolkies will get on board with this and provide me with some sort of make-shift answer. This bugs me because important people need names, for real. So please, help me... I'd like to sleep at night. I appreciate it, and again... keep in mind that I don't know a whole lot. |
01-16-2009, 08:28 AM | #2 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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That would be the first time I hear this idea. But it could only be wrong. That's why: Quote:
The future nazgul had to be alive and active sometime after SA 1697, but likely before SA 2251 (The nazgul first appear - App B, LOTR) - that is the requirement imposed by Tolkien's dating of various events. Now to the known hypotheses about the WK's possible identity an the list of "suspicious persons". Kings of Numenor: Tar-Minastir Tar Ciryatan Tar-Atanamir For the first one the dates of the life fit, but little else. For Ciryatan and Atanamir there is a nice theory by Olmer that you can read here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12230 Pay attention to Olmer's posts on page 2. Princes of Numenor: Isilmo, father of Tar-Minastir, a very suspicious person. He should have been King, but somehow was circumvented - his sister ruled and then his son. That is all we know about the guy: Quote:
Unnamed prince, either brother or uncle of Tar-Ciryatan. Please read this excellent article by Alcuin:http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm There is also Numruzir's Tal-Elmar theory, but I can't find the link anymore . Not much is known about him. He was an Easterling and was known as Khamul, the Shadow of the East, while he was Lieutenant of Dol Guldur in the Third Age. I believe Khamul is not his original name, but an epesse acquired after he became a wraith. Quote:
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So, if you want to sleep well, compile your own list. Last edited by Gordis : 01-17-2009 at 01:06 PM. Reason: spelling |
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01-16-2009, 05:39 PM | #3 |
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In the Akallabêth it says:"...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race." Note he didn't implicitly state "Kings". I would eliminate those in the line of succession. Why would Sauron's promise appeal to them?
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01-16-2009, 11:50 PM | #4 |
Sapling
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And that is what I came here for! Thanks, Gordis. I figured I was wrong about Tar-Surion because I had limited knowledge on the subject... but from the information I did have, I made what I judged to be the best possible guess. Had I read all the books I own, I would've known I was wrong from the start. However, I'm more interested in acquiring knowledge through discussion, debate and trial-and-error over time... as opposed to reading.
It's more fun to theorize and take an uneducated stab in the dark and have a high risk of being told I'm wrong... 'cause in the case that I was right I'd be a genius for it. You think "Gothmog" and "Khamul" are nick-names? This isn't something I'd considered. |
01-17-2009, 01:36 PM | #5 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Yet, "great lords" seems to imply at least persons of the Line of Elros, if not specifically princes of the Royal family. You mean what appeal could a Ring have for a King of Numenor? There were at least two possible reasons: 1. Eternal life. Ar-Pharazon let all his kingdom and all his army be destroyed for this very snare. Immortality was most appealing to any man, even a King. 2. Sorcery. If a King was interested in supernatural (and every King had some hobby, as we learn from UT), then one of the Nine rings that provided an access into the Spirit World would open new horizons in sorcery. Quote:
On the contrary, I totally see a name like that granted by Sauron to one of his top servants in recompense for faithful service. "Khamûl". Nobody knows what language is that. A good guess would be the Black tongue. If so, please compare the words "nazgûl" and "Khamûl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery: "nazgûl"= "ringwraith" "nazg"="ring" "ûl"="wraith" My guess that "ûl" in "Khamûl" also means "wraith", "shadow". And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgûl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth. The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "Khamul" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land". Last edited by Gordis : 01-17-2009 at 01:54 PM. |
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01-20-2009, 11:07 PM | #6 |
Sapling
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I thought '-gul' meant magic (or sorcery)...
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01-21-2009, 02:14 AM | #7 | |
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“-gul” as in “Morgul” means “sorcery” in Sindarin. “-ûl” as in “Nazgûl” means “wraith” in Black Speech, a language invented by Sauron and used mostly by him and his chief servants. That he borrowed from or used (or abused) Sindarin or to make it would not be surprising; and we know he used an Elvish script to inscribe his spell on the One Ring.
Tolkien says that the Kings of Númenor were embalmed in a manner similar to that of Egyptian pharaohs, and that they were all interred in valley called Noirinan at the south slope of Meneltarma, a forerunner of Rath D*nen, the “Silent Street” in Minas Tirith where the kings and stewards of Gondor were buried beneath mount Mindolluin. Khamûl is the only Nazgûl definitely named. I think Gordis is right on target with the meaning of his name: I had not considered it before. (Nazgûl are Gordis’ especial interest.) RotK Gothmog was the Lieutenant of (Minas) Morgul and took command of the army attacking Minas Tirith after the demise of the Witch-king, so lots of folks believe he might also be a Nazgûl. Iron Crown Enterprises developed a popular game called Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP), similar to D&D or Traveller (if anyone remembers that oldie), in which they assigned names to the other eight Nazgûl. (ICE went bankrupt in 2000 and lost its license; MERP survives on the web. ICE also developed some really neat, highly-detailed maps of Middle-earth that are also non-canonical: in other words, you can’t use them to prove a point in a Tolkien-related forum – though sometimes folks try!) Here are ICE’s names for the Nazgûl, courtesy of Encyclopedia of Arda (a great resource):
If it is of any interest, I have recently read that Quote:
Last edited by Alcuin : 01-21-2009 at 02:28 AM. |
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01-21-2009, 04:16 AM | #8 | |
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01-21-2009, 10:16 AM | #9 | |
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If by “factual basis”, you mean something written by Tolkien, no, I don’t believe it does. (I should willingly be corrected on this point by another ’Mooter.) |
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01-21-2009, 10:28 AM | #10 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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I'm asking because some of them look amateurish and not Tolkienesque at all |
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01-21-2009, 11:18 AM | #11 |
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Oh, if you want to speculate on the source of the names, I should say published Tolkien material at the time, D&D, and such late-night imbibings and libations as were common in the early- to middle-1980s.
“Er-Murazor” and “Adûnaphel” sound as if they might be faux-Adûnaic; “Adûnaphel” has –adun, Adûnaic for “west” in it. “Akhorahil” sounds as if it might be an attempt to get at a Sindarin-sounding name. (Akhorahil seems to have been called “the Blind Sorcerer” or “Akhorahil the Blind”.) “Er-Murazor”, “Akhorahil”, and “Adûnaphel” might all be worked out from what was known about Adûnaic and Sindarin at the time: you might start with the appendix to Silmarillion and see what was borrowed from the glossary; and there were other books published on Tolkien’s languages in the early 1980s, too. (I have one of them around here someplace…) “Ji Indur Dawndeath” sounds like a character in Star Wars; it strikes me that it could be some corruption of the English “engender dawn death”, as in, “kill them at dawn”. “Ren the Unclean” kind of rhymes, and “Dwar of Waw” sort of alliterates. “Hoarmurath of Dir” reminds me of “hoar [old] muriatic acid”, leading to “hold the muriatic acid, dear.” “Uva the Horseman” – well, I can’t get anything out of that except ova, Latin for “eggs”, but then my imagination might not be what it used to be. As I write, these names come back to me from decades ago, standing in the bookstore looking through the game books and wondering how these guys got the license after the first Lord of the Rings movies meshed with the D&D craze, and what they paid for it. This is pure speculation and impression on my part. It all sounds silly, but I was a DM at the same time the guys at ICE were devising Nazgûl names. Coming up with names is a difficult business, especially when you have a deadline and lots of them to invent. Anybody else who has a good idea should post it. Anyone who has any real knowledge – an old ICE or MERP employee or developer, perhaps – would be most welcome! Last edited by Alcuin : 01-21-2009 at 11:25 AM. |
01-21-2009, 11:55 AM | #12 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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What does "Er-" mean, I am not sure. If "Ernil"=Prince than it would be Sindarin, crazy to use it with Adunaic name. And I never saw "Ernil" form a prefix "Er-" like "Tar-" or "Ar-" And take Adunaphel the ICE-MERP nazgulette. Want a laugh? I think I have found out where the MERP guys took the idea. (For they are serious guys, some of their info has at least a slight basis in the canon. Hmm... very slight. ) Look here at this quote from the beginning of "A Knife in the Dark" Quote:
According to MERP she was the one who lived with Khamul in Dol Guldur away from the seven in Minas Morgul. I wonder if it was supposed to be a romance. |
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01-21-2009, 11:58 AM | #13 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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And here is the MERP story of Adunaphel: 7. Adunaphel, The Quiet Adunaphel / the Quiet / the Avenger Rank: 7th in ranking of the Nazguls Story: Adunaphel, a fair Numenorean princess from Forostar was the only female to become a Nazgul. Dissapointed that her younger brother should become heir to the throne, she left in anger and was grasped by hatred. Exact time and place for her meeting with the Dark Lord is unknown, but she was decieved by Sauron himself, not by an underling. Many signs point to the Second Age, around 2150. After the great plague ravaged Eriador in the mid Third-age, Gondor's watch on Mordor became less vigilant and Sauron sent Adunaphel to the black land to prepare for his eventual return. Adunaphel dwelt secretly in Nurn until the arrival of the Witch-king; whose coming heralded the Nazguls' assault on the tower of Minas Ithil. Its fall signified the end of Gondor's hold on the dark land. After Sauron's return to Barad-dur, Adunaphel was commanded to make fast the ancient stronghold of Dol guldur on the elves of Mirkwood, and later after the outbreak of the War of the Ring was involved with the other Nazgul in attempting to recapture the One Ring. She was unbound when the One ring was destroyed at Mount Doom by Frodo Baggins and/or Gollum. Last edited by Gordis : 01-21-2009 at 12:11 PM. |
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01-21-2009, 04:50 PM | #14 |
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Any of the eight remaining Nazgûl “unbound when the One ring was destroyed at Mount Doom” would surely “with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, … shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and [gone] out.” (RotK, “Mount Doom”) Unless, of course, Sauron decided to hold one or two in reserve - which does not seem to be the case, since the expedition Aragorn led from Minas Tirith “saw all the Nazgûl gathered together, hovering ... like vultures” (RotK, “The Black Gate Opens”), and presumably Sauron held nothing in reserve when he tried to retrieve his Ring from Frodo in Sammath Naur and prevent its destruction.
Though I suppose that, if for argument’s sake, any Nazgûl had survived (and to be clear, I think they were all destroyed), they would have been awfully, awfully old without their Rings. |
01-22-2009, 02:41 PM | #15 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Here is Udukhaturz's (Angmar's) post Quote:
and my reply: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 01-22-2009 at 02:48 PM. |
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01-22-2009, 05:33 PM | #16 | ||||
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Just a thought: we might need another thread for this…
Gandalf’s opinion seems to have been that Bilbo resumed his life as it was before the Ring once he gave it up. His explanation to Frodo in FotR, “Shadow of the Past”: Quote:
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Tolkien describes the other hobbits’ perception of Bilbo at the beginning of FotR in “A Long-expected Party”: Quote:
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Still, if the power of the One Ring was ended, and they were left, I imagine that the Nazgûl would have been old, but hale and not dead yet. Last edited by Alcuin : 01-22-2009 at 07:04 PM. Reason: 2nd paragraph poor wording addressed |
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01-22-2009, 07:17 PM | #17 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Alcuin, I agree with what you said about Bilbo and Gollum, but not about the nazgul.
Actually, Bilbo didn't age dramatically between the time he left the Ring to Frodo (TA 3001) and the War of the Ring (3018). It was only after the Ring was destroyed that he has aged very fast: Quote:
As for Gollum, let us say he was 17 in TA 2463, when he got the Ring. He was physically still 17 when he lost it in 2941. He started to age almost normally, so by 3018 he was 17+77= 94 - old, but still fit and quite well adapted to the life in the wilderness. However he knew that with the Ring destroyed he would "turn into dust" (becoming suddenly 573 years old and thus dead.) And in addition there likely have been some lingering effects of the ring, making those who had it once age at a slower rate afterwards. But all this IMO, applies to LIVING humans, not wraiths. Once you become a wraith, there are other - "unnatural" - rules for you. Your body is functioning unnaturally, it is cold, invisible, your vision is different, you use "other senses", you don't need to sleep, to breathe or to eat. And finally, if you are killed, you just disappear completely, leaving no invisible corpse behind. I don't think the wraiths aged at all- in TA 3018 they must have looked exactly like at the time when they had turned into wraiths back in mid-SA. But it is NOT the same as they looked when they got the Rings, though they remained the same age. I will explain why. Quote:
The last years of the nazgul's unnaturally stretched lives must have been a living hell: both mental and physical. Bilbo at 111 was only starting to feel uncomfortable: "stretched" and restless (by the way, note that despite the plentiful life in Bag End his old clothes seemed to become too big for him -so he lost weight without any apparent reason). The nazgul had traveled this road to the very end, when "every moment was a weariness". If, when they got the Rings, they were looking young, rosy-cheeked and healthy, they could look so no more at the end. The suffering made them haggard, pale and grey. And the more they resisted the Rings, the more they suffered. The rings, after all, only prevent ageing per se, not changing. Gollum had become unrecognizable even as a hobbit after living in this cave for 500 years. The nazgul only became haggard. Quote:
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01-22-2009, 10:12 PM | #18 | ||||
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Gordis. I think I’m compelled to agree. A few follow-on questions and so forth...
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As for the bodies of wraiths, I agree, too, but for a slightly different reason, I think: I believe the bodies of the wraiths faded just as Elves faded in Middle-earth, only much faster: that’s why they became invisible when they put on their Rings, and that’s why the Eldar could see them. The wraith-world, the “other side” that Shagrat and Gorbag discussed, and the realm of the faded Elves were all one and the same: the spirit realm. Elves continued to exist in the normal, physical world even after fading: they could see it normally and interact with it normally if they so chose, even faded, or so I read the material in Morgoth’s Ring. Men did not get there naturally: their connection to the everyday world was disrupted by the necromantic power of the Rings, and they could no longer perceive it as before. Such an outcome would make a person like Glorfindel a real threat to the Witch-king, for instance. I suspect the Witch-king, being a sorcerer, had better perception of his surroundings that the rest of the Nazgûl; but by himself, as he was after the last Battle of Fornost, Glorfindel had far better perception and tremendous combat advantage over him. It might well have taken several Ringwraiths to deal with him, as Gandalf explained to Frodo in Rivendell: on foot, not even Glorfindel and Aragorn together were a match for the mounted Ringwraiths all together. Quote:
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I think Sauron chose each of his victims very carefully and with considerable thought and fiendish foresight and insight into the character and abilities of the individuals. I believe he recruited each personally, which would necessarily imply that he entrapped them sequentially. (It does not rule out working several potential Ringwraiths at once, though.) I think the Witch-king was logically the last one, but only because it makes the most sense in terms of literature, in story structure; he could have been anywhere along the route. Last edited by Alcuin : 01-22-2009 at 10:15 PM. |
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01-23-2009, 06:34 AM | #19 | |||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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As for the WK being yet alive and Gollum turning to dust at the destruction of the One, I think it reflects the slower waning of the power of the Nine, the Seven and the Three as compared to abrupt disappearance of the power of the One. Barad Dur fell at once, but Lorien faded in a few years: it is not like all the mallorns disappeared in a cloud of yellow smoke. I think the nazgul had very little time left to live anyway (a few hours maybe or a few days), as the Nine rings were weaker than the Three and more connected to the One. I don't know for sure. Quote:
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They didn't need to breathe (otherwise Gandalf wouldn't be so sure that not a single one had drowned in Bruinen), but we know they did breathe - hobbits heard the sound of their breathing. Quote:
And, thinking of that, maybe the Numenoreans among the future nazgul considered using the same escape - maybe that's why during the times of Cityatan and Atanamir the Numenoreans started openly speaking against the Ban? If they could settle in Valinor, their fading would stop... Quote:
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I don't think they continued to feel as miserable after becoming wraiths, but they surely had first-hand knowledge of misery, despair and suffering. That's why they could cause these feelings in others just by shrieking. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 01-23-2009 at 06:43 AM. |
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01-23-2009, 01:52 PM | #20 | |||||
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The works of the other Rings might not then end abruptly, but tail off either quickly or slowly after the destruction of the One Ring. If the One was designed both to draw power from others to Sauron and to enslave their wills to Sauron, its destruction seems to have created a “hole” into which the power sustaining the works of the other Rings drained. “I don't know for sure” either, but I think it makes sense. Quote:
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