11-08-2002, 12:40 AM | #1 | |||||||
The Tall
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The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë
1. Why was Melkor (being the most powerful of the Ainur), the one who most wanted to do things by his own thought?
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2. Is the Universe Predefined? Quote:
4. Where the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best? Quote:
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7. Is this but a presage to all of us that Arda remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred? Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-08-2002, 08:18 AM | #2 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Ah, so many questions at once. Are we supposed to discuss all these topics simultaneously? I'll start at the top then, and continue downwards:
1. I've tried to give an answer to this in the "Iluvatar made Melkor evil" thread. I think Melkor, because of his great power and knowledge, considered himself almost as powerful as Iluvatar, and wanted to be like him, and to create things of his own. He went to seek the Imperishable Flame, but when he couldn't find it, he instead tried to alter the music of the Ainur, perhaps to try out his own power. The others of the Ainur may also have had the desire to create, but they did not try it, because it was clear their power wasn't great enough. This goes for Melkor. His fate was to desire a power he never could have, but still one that lay just outside his reach. I don't think powerful beings are generally more flawed than others, but I do think they are subject to greater temptations. 2. This topic have been discussed in length in the "Iluvatar made Melkor evil" thread. I tend to think that free will truly exist, at least for Men, with the implication that the Universe is not predestined (but I know not all of you agree of the logic here). Quote:
3. Well, that depends on what is considered evil. Melkor tried to be a creator like Iluvatar. Is that a fall? My moral code says no, because I don't think Melkor had evil purposes then, but still it may be Iluvatar's moral code says yes. According to my moral code, the fall began with the feeling of shame, and the anger that followed. But then, my moral code is not valid within Ea. TBC
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11-08-2002, 11:16 AM | #3 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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I think Melkor was supposed to be the prime mover of the sub-creative element, but that made him want to create-and that's a sin.
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11-08-2002, 01:09 PM | #4 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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11-08-2002, 02:58 PM | #5 |
AngAdan
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Melkor was so intent upon inflating his part in the music, that he heeded little the other parts. Thus he had little foresight of events in EA that he did not himself create. Thus while other like Lorien, Mandos, Manwe, and even Maiar like Melian, had much power of prophacy, most of it came a a suprise to Melkor. World conquerors should sing less and listen more.
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11-08-2002, 08:21 PM | #6 |
Hobbit
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The Ainur who left Iluvatar fell in love with the vision of the world, and the Children of Iluvatar. Although both didn't turn out like they thought they would. It's like when people decide to have kids. They love the idea of it, and they enjoy them when they're young. But as they grow older, things become more difficult and stressful. Some kids are good and some are rebels. But the parents don't second guess their decision to have kids-they love them no matter what. Suckers.
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11-09-2002, 01:08 AM | #7 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hello everyone - what a great idea this is! And SGH - you want me to participate?? You know how wordy I get!
Actually, I'll make my first post very brief. As Artanis said, we discussed a lot over in the Did Ilúvatar make Melkor Evil thread - I'd recommend that you people take a quick scan over there. Some very interesting thoughts about free will and predestination and responsibility for the presence, or even the possibility, of evil. Lefty - I really like your thought - yes, often the downfall of evil people is that they are so intently focused on themselves. That was definitely part of Sauron's downfall - he, at first, only thought of what HE would do if he found the ring and was in Aragorn's position. He didn't seem to even think that they might try to destroy it at first; he thought they would use it to fight against him. Because of that error in judgement, the fellowship had some extra time that was sorely needed.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-09-2002, 10:03 AM | #8 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Continued from my first post:
4. I've always regarded the Children as a response to Melkor's discord. Without the discord the music would have been solely good. Quote:
6. I'm not sure what you're getting at here Maedhros. The Valar were given different skills, and took special interest in different parts of the world. 7. Arda remade is imo definately going to be better than Arda unmarred. I base this upon the Athrabeth from Morgoth's Ring, and from the following quote from the Ainulindale: Quote:
9. Again I'm not sure about your question. Who should we consider as rebellions in the Sil?
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11-09-2002, 10:14 AM | #9 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Melkor also spent much time away from the other Ainur, when he was out in the Void seeking the Imperishable Flame. Therefore he didn't gain much understanding of his brethren, and didn't learn how to be in harmony with them.
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11-09-2002, 10:23 AM | #10 | |||
The Tall
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Another interesting question is: Why Music was used for the creation of the World?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-09-2002, 03:44 PM | #11 | ||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I don't know why he was most instructed in music. But it is said that he never lived in Valinor, but stayed in the waters of ME, and the music in the water never ceased to be, not even under Morgoth's darkness. Also the Teleri came to learn much about music from him. Quote:
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11-09-2002, 06:29 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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SGH just clued me in to this enormous undertaking.....this is my first glance at this thread, and I am overwhelmed!
I will need to print it out and do some "homework" before really jumping in.....but I wanted to get my feet wet! This is a most ambitious undertaking, and I look forward to going deeper in to the Sil.
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11-10-2002, 12:29 AM | #13 | |
Elven Warrior
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why should melkor try to understand his brethern, they were beneath him and inferior? he was the mightiest among them and was given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. its better to burn out.... than to fade away.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
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11-10-2002, 02:23 AM | #14 | ||
Elf Lord
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Anyway, the basic thing I was going to say was in putting together some of the posts that other people in this thread have already sent. Better connecting to your brethren is simply the right thing to do, and it's arrogance to not connect yourself with them. Even if Melkor was the most powerful, there were things that he didn't understand. Manwe was closest to the heart of Ilúvatar and Ulmo was best instructed in the music. Others had better gifts of prophesy and other things, but it is wrong to assume that because in your particular field you're better than all the others are in their different fields, what they know isn't worth becoming acquainted with. Quote:
I believe in my last post on the "Did Ilúvatar make Melkor evil?" thread, I pretty well established that Ilúvatar is good. Going on that assumption (You're free to quote and disagree with that post I'm referring to), then it is the bad rebel that will be punished, and not the bad. Whether someone is a rebel or not is immaterial, but whether they are on the side of good or evil is the point. Redemption is possible too, though. |
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11-10-2002, 02:43 AM | #15 | ||
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11-10-2002, 11:30 AM | #16 |
Elven Warrior
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i think of eru more as a force of nature. good and bad are labels we tend to place on things so that we may classify them. so theres my theory. lets face it, melkor is the opposite of what the other valar represent, and something that most tend to dislike. so what? he's a necessary part of a wonderful story, and he is necessary. he's a rebel against the establishment, he does things the way he wants. thats what i like about him. he's supposed to be arrogant, he's supposed to dismiss the importance of the other valar, reject their pitifull existence that requires them to do what they are told. he makes a good story better. i guess thats why eru sent him to arda in the first place. think about it. if you were eru and melkor pulled the crap he did before the world was made, would you send him there? someone that would have a say in how the world was shaped? i dont think eru was that much of a chump, he knew what he was doing by allowing melkor to help shape arda.
i am finished
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
11-10-2002, 11:53 AM | #17 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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11-10-2002, 02:41 PM | #18 |
Elven Warrior
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But his rebellion was unproductive to the intent of Iluvatar. [/B][/QUOTE]
it only appeared to be unproductive. what morgoth did or did not do was all for the greater will of eru. morgoth and sauron may have thought what they did was counter-productive, but in the end they were both just instruments of eru. "for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." thats a good passage.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. Last edited by MasterMothra : 11-10-2002 at 02:50 PM. |
11-10-2002, 04:03 PM | #19 | ||
Elf Lord
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And MasterMothra, would you please reveal to me the quote that says Ilúvatar sent Melkor to Middle Earth? Permitting and sending are two very different things, but that gets into the whole discussion of predestination, and that's discussed in the "Did Ilúvatar make Melkor evil?" thread. Quote:
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11-10-2002, 06:01 PM | #20 |
Elven Warrior
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sorry, mr leif garret, i didnt know syntax was so important, my apologies. so morgoth was "allowed" to enter arda. my argument still stands: why did eru allow a rebelious being in a place where he could negatively affect the process? was it a surprise to any that melkor would rebel in arda? he rebeled to the face of eru, what makes you think he wouldnt rebel when he had no supervision? personnally i dont think that eru, an omnipotent god, was that naive.
now lets take a look at the whole quote: "and thou, melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." that quote, to me, means just what it says. no metaphors, no hidden meanings, just straightforward reading. maybe you can tell me what this quote means, since i am obviously incapable of doing it myself. " and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that i set before you, all those things which it may "seem" that he himself devised or added. " thank you in advance
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. Last edited by MasterMothra : 11-10-2002 at 06:11 PM. |