12-23-2002, 01:03 AM | #1 | |
The Tall
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Ecological awarness among Númenóreans
One element that I have often associated with JRRT works of ME, is that the "Good guys" mostly have a sense of ecological awarness (exception of dwarves), you have the Hobbits, Elves, Ents and in a sense Men.
When Númenor was created, they had a very great influence by the Eldar, and it seemed to me that they had a certain harmony with their environment. Of course, it changed over time because of the desire of the Númenóreans to sail, they had to fell trees to make their ships. This passage from Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix D Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-24-2002, 03:18 AM | #2 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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I would certainly take it as a sign of the beginning of their downfall. I must go back and find where Tar-Aldarion is in the timeline, relative to the other signs of the 'downfall' of Numenor. I think it also ties in with the theme in Lord of the Rings and the destruction of Isengard--the ents were angry enough to take action against Saruman for his destruction of the trees, just as the unsustainable and harvest of the trees by the Numenoreans could be a sign of the beginning of their downfall.
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12-24-2002, 07:17 AM | #3 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Maedhros, why exception for the dwarves?
Else, I agree that the ruthless felling of trees was a sign of decay, when it was done for the sake of gaining more power and riches, and without thought of replanting.
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12-27-2002, 07:18 PM | #4 | ||
The Tall
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Quote:
Quote:
Last but more importantly is the never ending question of: Why did the Man on the Moon came down too soon?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-28-2002, 04:49 AM | #5 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I didn't remember that quote from the Sil.
Quote:
Quote:
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12-28-2002, 10:30 AM | #6 |
The Tall
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That is the never ending question in the beginning of the Legendarium.
Why indeed?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
12-31-2002, 08:59 AM | #7 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Maedhros, you are speaking in riddles.
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12-31-2002, 04:15 PM | #8 | |
the Shrike
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Re: Ecological awarness among Númenóreans
Quote:
However, remember what Gimli said about working in the glittering caves. Can't remember the exact quote, but it did sound like a form of ecological awareness to me: caring for the natural layout of the caves. He spoke almost tenderly.
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12-31-2002, 04:43 PM | #9 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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01-01-2003, 08:28 AM | #10 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Can be. Or it can be that I've never heard of him before. Is he a BoLT1 figure? I haven't laid my hand on that yet.
Enlighten me, please.
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01-02-2003, 08:15 PM | #11 | ||
The Tall
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From the Book of Lost Tales I: The Tale of the Sun and the Moon
Quote:
Now regarding the dwarves we have: From the Book of Lost Tales: The awakening of Men Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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01-02-2003, 10:55 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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Concerning evil Dwarves....
If you remember, Tolkien did say that some of the eastern houses of dwarves became corrupted by Morgoth.
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The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. Last edited by Finmandos12 : 01-02-2003 at 10:56 PM. |
01-13-2003, 10:35 AM | #13 |
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I don't see why Tolkien was so incredibly anti-technology. Humans were created to develop and create technology. I do believe though that using trees without thought of replacing them is bad, but I think cutting down trees to invent boats is good, as long as they grow more (obviously... that's kind of stupid, not replanting trees. WHat happens when you run out of trees smart ones -Numenoreans-? heh).
But i believe it's fine as long as you have tree-farms. Tolkien seemed to have a personal relationship with trees.... I read a biography on him and it said he used to go on walks through the park and he sort of got to know each tree. He knew exactly where each tree was, and which ones were his favorites. So I guess if you're that attatched to individual trees it would seem sort of wicked to cut them down...
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01-13-2003, 04:17 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
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01-14-2003, 05:07 AM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
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Don't forget that although Aldarion cut down forests for timber, he replenished them also.
From the Unfinished Tales: Aldarion and Erendis: Quote:
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"For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest." - Fëanor Last edited by Mirahzi : 01-14-2003 at 05:08 AM. |
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03-02-2003, 12:35 PM | #16 | |
Enting
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That's an interesting idea. I think Tolkien indeed wanted to show they were starting to decay. He uses the symbolism of felling trees many times: in Númenor, in Isengard, during the Scouring of the Shire.
Quote:
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"...So the essential Quest started at once. But I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never been to Bree. Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlórien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horse-lords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but Fangorn Forest was an unforeseen adventure." ~ J. R. R. Tolkien |
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