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05-14-2006, 11:08 AM | #1 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Lord of the Rings Discussion Project. Chapters II & III
What’s happening
Frodo and Sam have just escaped ‘The Tower of Cirith Ungol. The Watchers cry alerts Sauron’s forces who rush towards the Tower. Minas Tirith is besieged. The Witch King has brakes the cities gate and the Rohirrim charge. Aragorn brings the men of Lamedon and Lebennin to the battle. Aragorn raises the standard of Arwen. Theoden is slain. Battle under the trees in Mirkwood. Thranduil’s forces repel that of Dol Guldur and the second assault upon Lorien begins. The Land of Shadow Main Events 1. Sam and Frodo hear the cry of a Nazgûl while fleeing the Tower. 2. Hearing their pursuers, the hobbit’s jump of the bridge in to the plains of Morgai. 3. Frodo discards his mail shirt, not being able to carry it and wears Sam’s elven cloak. 4. The wind changes, and Frodo and Sam see a black figure returning to Mordor. As it arrives it let’s out a shrill cry, yet this cry no longer contains any note of terror. 5. Using the light Sam and Frodo use a track to find their way. The risk pays of as they find water. Sam offers to drink first in case it is poisonous. 6. The hobbits see the trackers. The large Uruk thinks that they have followed the right track, yet the ‘Snaga’ thinks that the little dwarf man and and great elf warrior went up into the hills. The small orc kills the larger Uruk and runs off out of sight. 7. We here that there is bad news from the battle and that there is a black gobbler (Gollum) somewhere around. 8. Frodo gives Sting to Sam and asks him to look after the phial. 9. The two hobbits see Sauron’s forces moving towards the Black Gate. 10. The two hobbits are captured by a horde of orcs heading towards Udûn. As a horde of Uruk charge at the Durthang line, Frodo and Sam see their chance to escape. Mount Doom What’s happening The third assault on Lorien begins. Aragorn dismisses the faint hearted as the Captains of the West leave Ithilien. Main Events 1. Sam wraps up Frodo in the elven cloak, and as he does so thinks of Lorien and hopes that the cloak will keep them hidden on their journey. 2. Sam comes to realise that there will be no return and their supplies will only take them to Mount Doom, but as his hope dies he becomes stern, almost stern. As he thinks of this, his thoughts turn home to the Shire. 3. As Aragorns host burns the fields of Imlad Morgul, Sam & Frodo turn back to the road. 4. Sam notices Frodo shielding himself from some unseen blow, and his right hand slowly being drawn towards the Ring. 5. Sam tells Frodo he will help him carry the Ring. Briefly his hand towards his sword hilt as he warns Sam off. 6. Sam and Frodo cast away all of their gear. Sam is particularly tearful about having to part with his cooking gear. 7. Sam debates with himself about the course to take. 8. Sam decides that Frodo can not manage to get up the mountain by himself and resolves to carry him. 9. Sam and Frodo come to Sauron’s road from Barad-dûr to Sammath Naur. 10. Frodo calls out to Sam, as the temptation of the Ring becomes to great for him. 11. Gollum hits Sam on the head with a rock. As he looks up he sees the sight he saw at Emyn Muil, of two rivals. Frodo casts Gollum off, telling him that if he touches him ever again he will be cast into the fire. Gollum flees as Sam aims a kick at him 12. As Sam follows Frodo into Sammauth Naur he can not see, he draws out the phial of Galadriel, yet it brings forth no light. 13. Frodo claims the Ring as his own. As he does this the Nazgûl, turn from the battlefield and fly towards Mount Doom. 14. Gollum knocks Sam over and wrestles and invisible Frodo for the Ring. Gollum bites off Frodo’s finger and claims the Ring, yet in his jubilance he falls over the edge and into the Fire, destroying the Ring, and bringing and end to Sauron’s domain. 15. Frodo remembers Gandalf’s words concerning Gollum, and tells Sam that he would not have been able to destroy it without Gollum.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-14-2006, 11:43 AM | #2 | |||||||
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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Key Quotes
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1. Why did it take so long for help to arrive at Cirith Ungol. There was an important prisoner there and Sauron allowed a fight to take place there. Why was there not a Nazgûl there from the beginning? 2. Is the black figure the Witch-King or another Nazgûl bringing bad news. 3. Do you think that hearing about the great Elf Warrior would have boosted Sam's spirits? 4. Does Frodo giving Sam to Sting symbolise the 'Changing of the Guard'? Bilbo to Frodo. Frodo to Sam. 5. Did Sam know from the beginning that there wold be no return, or was this the first time he realised? 6. Is Frodo warning Sam to leave the Ring another way that Frodo has become like Bilbo? 7. Is there any parallels between Gollum debating with himself and Sam doing so. Are these two charcters more alike than they think? 8. Sam sees Gollum and Frodo as two rivals. Is Frodo Gollum as he should have been? Is Frodo turning into Gollum? 9. Does the phial of Galadriel not working symbolise that Sauron's power is greater than that of Galadriel? 10. Does Frodo's warning to Gollum have anything to do with him falling into the fire? 11. Through out these two chapters the two Hobbits think of Lorien and the Shire. Was Tolkien trying to say that these two places were the complete opposite of Mordor?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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05-14-2006, 02:02 PM | #3 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Great summary, TD!
Extremely interesting discussion points. My compliments, TD! I will be back later. |
05-18-2006, 10:43 AM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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Wotcha TD!
yes- excellent work. i too have no time just now other than quick looksy! Look forward to the debate to follow! Did the ring not want to be found by sauron, do you think - in helping sam out? best, BB |
05-18-2006, 12:07 PM | #5 | |
Elven Warrior
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05-18-2006, 01:00 PM | #6 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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And here I second Landroval's opinion whole-heartedly
Now, I must really get back to TD's questions... |
05-18-2006, 01:31 PM | #7 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Discussion Points
1. Why did it take so long for help to arrive at Cirith Ungol. There was an important prisoner there and Sauron allowed a fight to take place there. Why was there not a Nazgûl there from the beginning? Good question. Perhaps Sauron never expected any trouble there? And he needed his nazgul on the battlefield (especially if 2-3 were away at Dol-Guldur). As for the help arriving so late, I think it was because Sauron was away at Sammath Naur. I opened a special thread for this theory. 2. Is the black figure the Witch-King or another Nazgûl bringing bad news. Another nazgul with bad news, I have no doubt of it. The Witch-King passed entirely into the Spirit world, he couldn't become visible (even wear visible clothes anymore). I doubt he could fly on a Fell Beast anymore as well. And then in the quote about his fall at Pelennor it was said: Quote:
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3. Do you think that hearing about the great Elf Warrior would have boosted Sam's spirits? Yes, sure, especially given his infatuation with Elves. 4. Does Frodo giving Sam to Sting symbolise the 'Changing of the Guard'? Bilbo to Frodo. Frodo to Sam. Hmm... I think it is more like : "I won't be needing weapons anymore". Or, perhaps, by this time Frodo was constantly thinking of the Ring as a weapon far surpassing all the swords? "If I claimed the Ring, I will not need weapons anymore... All will bow to me and call me "Lord"? 5. Did Sam know from the beginning that there would be no return, or was this the first time he realised? I think he always hoped. He was not very bright, but he always hoped for the best. 6. Is Frodo warning Sam to leave the Ring another way that Frodo has become like Bilbo? Worse than Bilbo, more like Gollum... 7. Is there any parallels between Gollum debating with himself and Sam doing so. Are these two charcters more alike than they think? Two talkative hobbits... 8. Sam sees Gollum and Frodo as two rivals. Is Frodo Gollum as he should have been? Is Frodo turning into Gollum? Frodo is mentally turning into something in-between Gollum and a Ringwraith, IMHO. 9. Does the phial of Galadriel not working symbolise that Sauron's power is greater than that of Galadriel? I think so. Good observation. 10. Does Frodo's warning to Gollum have anything to do with him falling into the fire? Yes, it was the direct cause of his fall, IMHO. 11. Through out these two chapters the two Hobbits think of Lorien and the Shire. Was Tolkien trying to say that these two places were the complete opposite of Mordor? Well, they seem to be. In addition I have this little nitpick: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 05-18-2006 at 01:34 PM. |
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05-19-2006, 02:01 PM | #8 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
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If anything, Tolkien said it was Frodo's pitty that made this happy ending possible. |
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05-19-2006, 03:18 PM | #9 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Bilbo's pity, you mean?
And what happy ending? Gollum's death? |
05-19-2006, 04:26 PM | #10 | ||
Elven Warrior
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05-20-2006, 06:37 AM | #11 | |
Elf Lord
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remember Tolkien sets this out as a History- but he is very clear that it is one as seen from the perspective of and by the accounts of the hobbits - and they at best second guess much of the enemy's movements, plans and thoughts ... how can they not? Gandalf himself says he is no lore master on the One - come to that - who really was? Saruman? Hardly. But he knew considerably more than Gandalf. To me this is the central question of this chapter - is the ring manipulating the Orcs and did it hinder rather than help the cause of "getting back to its master"?? As i say, that was an assumption only by Gandalf - he knows it himself that it could have not have been more than that. best all, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-20-2006 at 06:41 AM. |
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05-20-2006, 06:55 AM | #12 | ||
Elven Warrior
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05-20-2006, 07:18 AM | #13 |
Elf Lord
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aha!!
But that's just ... Tolkien's view ... i mean really! ..what's that worth huh? besides - supporting snippets can be very misleading out of context - it's like the bible anyway - you can always find other quotes somewhere that support your case, albeit in roundabout ways sometimes ... ..i'm just too lazy! But anyway, as Gor says - he was BUSY!!!... and that quote refers to Sauron's view - not the rings' ! .. question now is: was it also the ring's wish to be "mastered" again?? note also Tolkien's point: that Sauron had "to make it" ...i.e. to "force it" .. case closed! best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-20-2006 at 07:19 AM. |
05-20-2006, 07:53 AM | #14 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Wrong thread, BB ! Better let us discuss TD's interesting questions... |
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05-20-2006, 06:39 PM | #15 |
Elf Lord
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..you ever play darts?
(you gotta admit it was pretty close! - i was aiming for double top ) TD: (wotcha TD! ) 5. Did Sam know from the beginning that there wold be no return, or was this the first time he realised? nah, and nah. Not for me, TD. He never really truly gives up - and he certainly never set out even considering the possibility of such a thing even remotely being an option. best,BB |
05-21-2006, 12:09 PM | #16 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Very good intro and questions TD.
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05-21-2006, 12:29 PM | #17 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I meant these quotes:
Smeagol swore on the Ring: Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 05-21-2006 at 12:31 PM. |
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05-21-2006, 12:39 PM | #18 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Just an additional note:
I think the Ring was not that "smart" and couldn't clearly percieve its surroundings. It felt the thoughts of the bearer and helped him, if he was not going against its REAL Master. It helped Sam at Ungol. Sam needed to get rid of about 200 orcs: no problem, the Ring made them fight with each other in madness. It intimidated the orc he met on the stairs. Also, those two orcs: a small one and a big one, who almost found them after their escape from the Tower. Perhaps it was the Ring that made them come to blows? Now Frodo claimed the Ring, so it was bound to obey him more. At least against Gollum, its slave. Frodo was fighting with the creature, desiring its death. Moreover there was the Oath broken. Surely, the Ring cast Gollum into the Fire, not understanding its own peril, exactly as Frodo commanded. |
05-23-2006, 03:17 PM | #19 | |||
Elven Warrior
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05-23-2006, 04:26 PM | #20 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Here I must stop. |
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