07-03-2003, 12:13 PM | #1 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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Were Beren and Lúthien right in their Quest?
From The Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien
Quote:
Was it ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest for a seemengly selfish reason?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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07-03-2003, 12:47 PM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NEW JERSEY!
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well it was their quest for the good of middle earth, and it wasnt jsut for luthien. there were reasons that the elves wated the simirils
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07-03-2003, 01:32 PM | #3 |
Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
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If blame could be placed on anybody I'd sooner place it on Thingol for not handing over the Silmaril to the sons of Feanor. Or possibly blame the sons of Feanor for demanding it. Ah screw, the Oath is to blame for all of it.
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
07-03-2003, 01:40 PM | #4 |
The Elvish Temptress
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All this crap began with Feanor .....
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07-03-2003, 05:37 PM | #5 | |||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
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From The War of the Jewels: The Grey Annals
Quote:
Quote:
From The Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien Quote:
P.S. Lalaith, that is the coolest avatar I have seen here.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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07-04-2003, 06:35 AM | #6 | |
The Elvish Temptress
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Quote:
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What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead. |
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07-04-2003, 11:12 AM | #7 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
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It is Thingol's bigotry and arrogance and comtempt for the laws of his own people (Elven's parent have NO right in law or custom over whom the children marry, nor is any ritual required, but is certain froms [at least among the Nolder] are not observed, then the spouse gains only the spouse, and not kinship with the rest of the family) than brings curse and coom unpon Doriath.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 07-04-2003 at 11:19 AM. |
07-04-2003, 02:20 PM | #8 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Thingol's problem was that he didn't take Beren seriously. He didn't see Beren as a person, he saw a Man, and his view on Men were clearly based on ignorance and haughtiness. He had lived inside the girdle ever since Men appeared in Beleriand, perhaps this was the first time he ever saw a Man. Maybe, if he had himself participated in the Dagor Bragollach, or if his kingdom hadn't been so isolated, he would have discovered the valour of Men sooner.
Beren on his side made an oath to Thingol, that he should bring him a Silmaril. His actions from that moment on seem logical, he had to find any aid that he could hope to get on the quest. His reasons were selfish, but when he sought the aid of Finrod he had no idea of what would follow; Finrod's death, the treason of Celegorm and Curufin, and eventually the fall of Nargothrond. It may be noted that when Beren speaks to Thingol about his love for Luthien, "it seemed to him that words were put into his mouth". So perhaps all that happened was inevitable, and were meant to be. The union between Beren and Luthien brought high noblesse into the race of Men.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 07-05-2003 at 12:45 AM. |
07-05-2003, 04:05 AM | #9 | |||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 103
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I don’t really see selfishness on the part of Beren and Lúthien, they had aid from others but they also helped themselves in their quest. With the exception of Finrod, maybe, the involvement of others was their own choice. I say maybe Finrod because Beren did seek him out for aid. But, if Finrod didn’t mean to give aid to Barahir or his kin then he shouldn’t have sworn an oath to do that.
Beren travels on a perilous journey (where after he won’t talk about it because it brings back horror to his mind) to Doriath where he passes through the girdle of Melian, and when Beren first sees Lúthien he is struck with love for her and the same can be said for Lúthien when she first catches sight of Beren. Thingol is a barrier to their happiness but I think it was because of what Beren was (a Man) and also what Beren wanted was Thingol’s daughter. Quote:
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I'll stop rambling, all this is just my opinion. |
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07-05-2003, 10:31 AM | #10 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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From The Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien
Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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07-05-2003, 11:32 PM | #11 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Re: Were Beren and Lúthien right in their Quest?
Quote:
i think it really doesn't matter whether or not it was selfish of beren and luthien for enlisting finrod and everyone for assistance in reclaiming the silmarils... yes the motive was to present it to king thingol so that beren could by with luthien, but bottom line, the motive was to somehow reclaim the silmarils for whatever motive they had in mind as well as fullfilling the oath of feanor... so in my opinion, everyone at that time just happened to be part of situation where there is a goal to achieve, and they were all just trying to achive the goal by doing their own thing... (btw, i'm new to the boards, so, hello to everyone! i'm still trying to fully understand the context of the silmarillion, so forgive me if i sound like i didn't make sense or if i was missing something) Last edited by Celeviel : 07-05-2003 at 11:34 PM. |
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07-06-2003, 12:50 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2002
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tolkien says that although men are free from the music in the end they will find that they have done the will of eru
this was why beren was able to pass the girdle of meliean (cant spell and dont ahve time to lookup)becasue he had a doom upon him greater then her power, just as bilbo found the ring the quest came from eru and from him alone for nothign in the music fortold it. and even the valar are bound by the music. though men and eru arent (seemingly hobbits rent either whihc makes me think they are relations of men)
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07-07-2003, 01:19 AM | #13 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
The goal to obtain the Silmarils was only of the exiled Ñoldor, especially the Fëanorians. Do you really think that it is ok to ask for the death of Finrod just because Beren was sad that he couldn't be with Lúthien? Do you think it was right that Huan died in the battle with Carcharoth? Why couldn't Beren said to either of them the thing that he say to Lúthien, that it was too dangerous?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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07-07-2003, 04:11 AM | #14 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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But you can't really blame Huan's death on Beren, can you? They did not hunt Carcharoth because of the Silmaril, but because of the madness and onslaught of the great wolf. Beren had already won the hand of Lúthien by then. It was just sensible to send the best hunters, and Huan was among them. Besides, I think Huan was always Lúthien's helper, not Beren's.
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07-11-2003, 01:35 PM | #15 |
Elf Lord
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Where does it say that Beren knew Finrod would die?
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07-11-2003, 01:46 PM | #16 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-18-2003, 02:59 PM | #17 | |
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Well, you people possess interesting views.
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Offcourse everything can be defined by saying It was pre-ordained or It was meant to happen, but the fact is that the consequences of an action doesn't necessary judge whether the action was correct or foul. And In this case, whatever consequences Beren's quest had, the simple basic fact was that his quest was based around selfish reason. Ironic, isn't it when one has to defend something he certainly doesn't believe in.
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08-16-2003, 12:33 AM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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Love, "A seemingly selfish reason"? I call it a noble cause, worth dying for. But I'm a hopeless romantic.
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 08-16-2003 at 12:34 AM. |
08-16-2003, 06:25 PM | #19 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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08-17-2003, 04:20 AM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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Maybe it is not worth your life, that is, maybe it is not worth it to you, but the undying love of two others was evidently worth it to Finrod. Findaráto was such a compassionate person that he could he feel the pain of Beren, and, understanding what it felt like to be severed from his love, he took on the quest of Beren, as a friend, as a man who understood. Finrod, and others, was perhaps the person who could say "their love is as important as my love, and I will help them, as I would help myself." Moreover, Beren and Lúthien did not twist anyone's arms, everyone who helped them did so of their own free will. I do not think Beren and Lúthien were being selfish.
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