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04-08-2008, 08:43 PM | #1 | |
Elf Lord
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Cowardice?
Ok, so what was up with the sons of Feanor (btw, how do we do the dots/accents/etc. here?) not once obeying their father's last words:
Quote:
A man and an elf-maiden accomplished a part of the deed not one of them ever once dared try, even though they swore an oath to relentlessly do so.
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04-08-2008, 08:58 PM | #2 | |
The Ñoldóran
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As for the accents, open your character map - it'll tell you the ALT+ code that you need to get them, or you can just select them from there. I'm on a laptop, so I generally just select them and copy.
As for the rest: Were you TRYING to be inflammatory? No, it wasn't cowardice. And they did try to get the Silmarils. Throughout the entire book they're fighting Morgoth in some way or another, and they cause dissent in Nargothrond, kill Dior and co. in Menegroth, and attack Elwing and co. at Sirion. All in an attempt to regain the Silmarils. Why didn't they attack Melkor right on? Because it was foolhardy. Fëanor died without even facing Morgoth, Fingolfin was killed (although he did a decent job of it), and Fingon was pounded into the ground facing Morgoth and his allies. In Of Beren and Lúthien, it states: Quote:
As for Beren and Lúthien getting the Silmaril - well, that's a bit different. That was their Doom, and they were surely helped in this matter by the unseen hand of Eru. I don't think Eru was going to help out the Sons of Fëanor much, especially after the Kinslaying and their Oath...And don't forget, Lúthien WAS half-Maia.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-09-2008, 05:30 AM | #3 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
Did they go after the other two Silmarils when Lúthien and Beren proved reclaiming them by stealth was possible? Nooo, they went for the easy prey, destroying the only other strong Elven kingdom, Beleriand, in the process. And you'd think they'd learned their lesson after that, nooo, they tried the same thing again and destroyed friend and kin at the Mouth of the Sirion. With allies like this, who needs enemies?
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04-09-2008, 09:44 AM | #4 | |
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Quote:
Finrod was never their king...and which brother? And they didn't always make the wisest choices, perhaps, but they weren't cowards...
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-09-2008, 10:20 AM | #5 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Hm, may have muddled up a few pronouns there. Let me attempt to clarify.
You quoted a piece of text to support that the sons of Fëanor were wise to wait with attacking Morgoth until they got more power. The bit you quoted mentioned Curufin and Celegorm keeping Lúthien captive and exort her father so Celegorm could marry her. I assumed you used this quote to show some of the manners in which the sons of Fëanor attempted to gain importance and support. I wanted to point out that this was not the best way to go about it. Forcing Lúthien into marriage would not gain them Thingol's favour. Especially not since the sons of Fëanor were implicated in the Kin-slaying at Alqualondë, where Thingol's brother Olwë was king, if I recall correctly. And while Finrod may not have been the King of Celegorm and Curufin, he was the one in whose house they lived. So maybe host is a better word. The matter still stand they failed him rather badly. These are not the fellows I'd want in charge in the battle against Morgoth. They may not have been cowards (much, since Curufin's and Celegorm's attack on Lúthien and Beren can't be called brave either) but they certainly were pig-headed idiots in making important decisions!
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04-09-2008, 10:39 AM | #6 | |
The Ñoldóran
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Ah, yes, sorry, I misunderstood.
Yes, the quote was made for that reason, but more to show that they weren't just sitting idle. Plans were made to retrieve the Silmarils, they just didn't want to leap in 'where angels fear to tread', if you will, seeing how it had cost their father, uncle and cousin to do so. They wanted to take their time and be successful when they finally attempted to do so. It was a rather wise military maneuver, really. But you're right that they didn't go about it in the best of ways. I've always thought that it would have been better for everyone involved if Lúthien had just fallen for Celegorm in the first place (come on, he's a son of Fëanor - talented, good looking, important, and if you marry him you don't have to die... Silly Lúthien), but since that didn't happen, they saw that as the best way to conquer Doriath. Note that their first attempt to do so was not by force, and warning was made from the very beginning by the sons of Fëanor to Thingol that requesting the Silmaril was a bad idea. It was as much Thingol's fault (what happened) as Celegorm and Curufin's. It was Thingol who re-awakened the Oath - Celegorm and Curufin were living happily and peacefully at Nargothrond before that: Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-09-2008, 03:04 PM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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Of course I was trying to be inflammatory.
But I really would like to see some defense of these guys. Part of the reason the oath bit them so hard is because they tried to defy it. They tried to have their cake and eat it, too. (I hate that expression but it fits.) What they should have done is what their father did and asked them to do: go after Morgoth full-bore and get those jewels back. They decided first to try and trick Morgoth with a fake parley and then to be prudent and set up a defense. Wise? Was it really? Look at the results. At least if they went directly at Morgoth from the start they'd have kept him off-balance until they were dead. Did any of them die a better death than their father and uncle Fingolfin? Did any of them die a better death than Finrod or Fingon? They all still died but ignominiously when they could have gone out with a blaze of glory like their father, uncle, and cousins. For what? A few decades or centuries more of life in Middle Earth. What a waste. And when they (2 of them) found that Beren, Finrod, and a small elite force were planning to infiltrate Angband to recover a Silmaril, do they join in, in accordance with their oath? Nope. What about when they found that Beren and Luthien succeeded, did that motivate them to try the same? Still no. Wouldn't want to risk anything to regain those jewels. You have the floor...
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04-09-2008, 03:48 PM | #8 | |||||
The Ñoldóran
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian Last edited by Curufin : 04-09-2008 at 03:50 PM. |
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04-17-2008, 11:43 PM | #9 |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
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And who was it, who by his dying insight saw this, but didn't warn them and didn't release them from their futile oath?
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02-16-2009, 06:28 PM | #10 | |
Hobbit
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Quote:
You can call them Evil, Cruel, Murderer, and Kinslayer to your heart's content, but Oathbreaker is a name I won't take from you. Not after all they suffered to keep that stupid oath And I don't think Coward is a fair name either. Tolkien himself said that all the children of Finwe were fearless and hardy of heart. Celegorm and Curufin's problem was their perception of what was and wasn't worth their valour. |
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04-09-2008, 04:12 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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And just how did they know, at the beginning, that force was futile? Because dad got killed? When they came up in force behind him the enemies fled! They had them on the run.
Your assertion is that they tried another method. Mine is that their method was a half-measure as regards their oath. It is stated many times in the texts that when they finally made moves against those holding Silmarils it was because the oath awoke and drove them. The clear implication is that they were NOT being driven by it at other times. Let me put it this way. When they all arrived at the Halls of Mandos, do you think their father told them: "Nice work, boys. Great job. Thanks for doing your best?" I can't see it. On the other hand, this isn't so much of a criticism of Maedhros or Maglor because it is pretty clear that they were reluctant from very early on based on principle, not on fear, and that they despised the wicked oath for much of their stay in Middle Earth. I've not seen any good reasons for the behavior of the other sons other than strategic ones.
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04-09-2008, 04:20 PM | #12 | |
The Ñoldóran
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Quote:
As for me and Celegorm, I think we waited because a) we wanted to bide our time and make sure that we could win and b) we knew the oath was futile and chances were we'd die anyway. We had to stick to the Oath, but that didn't mean we thought we could succeed on it. And there were other things we wanted to do first.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-18-2008, 01:22 AM | #13 |
The Ñoldóran
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I don't know, who? *innocence*
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04-18-2008, 06:45 AM | #14 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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04-18-2008, 06:50 AM | #15 |
The Ñoldóran
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Curufin and his six - er, five - brothers wish to make no comment on this at this time.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-18-2008, 09:03 AM | #16 |
Elf Lord
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It's the Silm forum. We can go with six. And while we're at it, lets go with Gil-galad as the son of Fingon.
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04-18-2008, 03:59 PM | #17 |
The Ñoldóran
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No can do. He's Orodreth's.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-18-2008, 10:51 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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<whining>But I don't *like* Orodreth!</whining>
Honestly, the dude was weak. Think of how happy you were to see him taking charge when Finrod left. Why? Because he's a loser. Couldn't hold Minas Tirith against Sauron. Couldn't hold Nargothrond against anyone, least of all you and your brother. Then one of the slayers of Sauron is his son? Not that sons are always like their fathers but there is almost no resemblance between Orodreth and Gil-galad. They hardly even seem like cousins, regardless of the times removed. In fact, I'm not sure Orodreth is even Noldor. I think he was possibly adopted by Finrod in some sort of First-age big brother program.
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04-19-2008, 02:07 AM | #19 |
The Ñoldóran
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Finarfin, you mean?
Finrod doesn't have any kids. No, I don't like him either, but he sure would have done a lot better if not for Túrin.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-19-2008, 04:49 AM | #20 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Gil-Galad can't be Fingon's son, because he would then become King after Finrod, never Fingon's nephew Orodreth.
By the way, I don't like GG at all. It was just mean how he used the Numenoreans back in SA 1700, keeping them in the dark about the Rings. And he was whining for help long before that (see Aldarion and Erendis). He was too weak to rule the Noldor in the Second age: he was High King, he could have prevented the Mirdain from befriending Annatar and chasing away Galadriel. But like his father Orodreth, he let the rebels be. All the guy managed to achieve was to die valiantly. |