01-10-2006, 05:42 PM | #1 | ||||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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What is death for Ainur?
I would like to continue the discussion on death and immortality of Ainur, started in another thread, as I find it very interesting. I am afraid I am not knowledgeable enough in these matters, so I will explain how I see it, and please, correct me if I am wrong.
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As I see it, for a man or an elf "to die" means that their spirit (fëa) leaves the body (hröa) and goes to Mandos and beyond (in case of Men). Hröa remains and slowly rots. Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar. So here we have a "mortal" hröa and an immortal fëa. In this Elves and Men are alike, only an Elven hröa endures much longer, almost indefinitely long. Now let us take an Ainu. They are immortal fëar not necessarily clad in a hröa. (Somewhere Tolkien says that bodies are like clothes to them). Ulmo may appear as a wave, Yavanna as a tree etc., but mostly they are clad in anthropomorphic hröar. If a hröa of an Ainu is irreparably damaged, the fëa clads itself into a new one. No big deal normally. But there is the notion of an "incarnate" ainu. Melkor and Sauron became more and more incarnate: Quote:
What is death to all these incarnate Maiar? When their hröa is damaged, the immortal fëa lives on, but is nullified - rendered powerless until it manages "to rebuild a semblance of its former habitation" That must take a lo-oong time, (1000+ years for Sauron) UNLESS the fëa gets some help from the Valar (Gandalf's fëa went back to Valinor and got reincarnated in less than a month) or from the Ring (Sauron after the Downfall got reincarnated in less than 100 years). The poor Barlog was "nullified", when Gandalf destroyed his body and he got no external help. Though perhaps, who knows, in 2000 years he may walk again. The same applies to Saruman. No help from the Valar: his spirit turned to the West, but was rejected, so his houseless fëa remained in ME. But I agree with brownjenkins, his spirit did continue on. As well as Sauron's after the destruction of the Ring. Interesting what happens with Maiar's hröar. We witnessed several "deaths" of incarnate Maiar: 1. Sauron at Orodruin. We don't know what happened with his body. I personally think that at it was literally burning hot it simply withered to ashes and disappeared, after Isildur cut the finger. 2.The Moria Barlog was thrown down from the mountain peak but then what?? 3. Gandalf suffered critical damages in his fight with the Barlog. I think after that he got a new body as a. he was not immediately recognizable b. he had no traces of burns and bruises. c. he claimed that he forgot a lot and remembered a lot etc, no wonder with a new brain! 4. Saruman - most interesting case. Quote:
1. the Witch-King - disappeared entirely, leaving no body, either visible or invisible. Perhaps the nazgul acquired some Ainu properties? 2. Feanor. Quote:
If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well. Here is the end of my ramblings. What do you think on this all? |
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01-10-2006, 05:54 PM | #2 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-10-2006, 05:57 PM | #3 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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too late for me to comment on these thoughts today, but good ones
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01-10-2006, 07:35 PM | #4 |
Hobbit in the Music
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Well, I would say that unlike elves and men, the life-force of a Maia is not normally tied to their bodies, but to their power and their will (this is true to a lesser extent for elves and men also; they can die from simply losing the will to live). CrazySquirrel said a lot about Incartation that changes this, but I'll focus on the normal case. When Maiar have more power, their life-force is strong and they can more easily create a new body. When Saruman's staff was broken, he lost his power, and since he had grown bitter by the time Wormtongue killed him, his will was also pretty weak. Sauron protected his life-force by putting his power and will into the ring. When he lost it, his body died, but his life-force remained since his power and will still existed in the ring. When it was destroyed, his rudimentary body (the Eye) died again. I think the Balrog lost its power and will gradually in the fight with Gandalf, so it is also powerless to return.
I believe that their spirits didn't die but that they're still out there somewhere and perhaps have some small intelligence and sense of self left, but with no power or will they are helpless to do anything but perhaps give people evil thoughts. Power is also related to will, I think, for Gandalf seems to have more or less power depending on his mood and level of desperation. As for Feanor, I really don't think he was any form of Maia, just an elf whose spirit was too strong for his body. Spirits can be compared to fire, I think. We speak of some people having more "spark" or "fire" than others-- their will is stronger. I think that's what Feanor's "fiery spirit" means. It made him powerful in learning, craftsmanship, and magic, but also arrogant and self-obsessed, and led to his downfall. |
01-11-2006, 05:33 AM | #5 | ||
Elf Lord
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Nice topic, CS. Couple of observations:
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Also, elves who do not die and do not travel into the West gradually fade from the material world. Their hröa is consumed by their fëa. Quote:
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01-11-2006, 05:51 PM | #6 | |||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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I think I offer a realistic explanation . Quote:
Feanor's mother killed herself, his father remarried (also very exceptional- but understandable if his first wife had been unfaithful) and Feanor himself got a "fiery" spirit and a cruel, evil character... Quote:
No, no, it is only in the movie! |
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01-11-2006, 08:12 PM | #7 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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thread question - "What is death for Ainur?"
Answer - listening to Tom Bombadil's songs 24/7 ... (and more on-topic : aren't they called the "deathless ones" somewhere? or is my memory failing me?)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-13-2006, 10:34 AM | #8 | ||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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01-13-2006, 08:32 PM | #9 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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The Wizard King
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The answer lies in the drafts for the story, published in HOME 6-8. Tolkien had an earlier conception of the Witch King, where his nature and identity were no mystery. In LOTR drafts he was called "the Wizard King" and was originally the most powerful WIZARD of the same order as Gandalf. Quote:
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Of course, when Tolkien made up his mind about the nature of Wizards, and decided they came to ME around TA 1000, it became impossible for the WK to be one of them, because, how then "the 9 rings were given to men?" How could a Maia become a wraith? So, the "Wizard King" was changed to the "Witch-King" throughout the text, and a few sentences when Gandalf reveals his nature (see quotes above) were removed. But that was all. Nothing was changed in the scene of the WK's death - so his body disappears much like Saruman's (and understandably so). Everyone reading LOTR gets a clear impression that Gandalf fears the WK, because he is overmatched. And it made sense in the earlier conception, because the Wizard King was the more powerful WIZARD of the two, or had similar power and strength as Gandalf the White. Also the WK still remains the strongest BY FAR than the other nazgul (though now the reason for it is gone). That is how the Witch-King lost his identity. He is still called "King and Sorcerer of old", but Tolkien never came up with a new story for him, that had to explain why he was so very powerful. |
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01-15-2006, 03:12 AM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
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And of course he was outmatching Gandalf in skill, Istari were not allowed to reveal their true power. But on another hand they even was not equpped with much in the first place: they were rendered powerless without theirs staffs with a lazer beam. To defense his inadequacy Gandalf has to come up with an excuse that he stands up against more powerful entity of his own kind, because, contrary to Gandalf and Saruman, the Witch-king had a power even to change the weather. I don't think that Wikkie belongs to any lower (or higher) "powers"of the world. His body disappeares much like Saruman's, but also much like the Army of the Dead, who were men happened to hang around in the world of shadows for too long for their own good, just like the Witch-king. To die in fashion of normal men he, and other Nazgul, were too much on another side and almost lost their physical bodies . But they were men, nontheless, and their spirits, even as corrupted, as it could ever be, flew to the Hall of Mandos to be judged. They had only one physical form and with lost of it their spirits doom to wander "homeless". But for ainur the physical form is not a "home" for their spirit, it is a temporary cover. Their spirits are parts of thoughts of Eru, and will live as long as Eru will exist, at will reincarnate itselves again and again. Thought the ability to reincarnate yourself is greatly depends on theirs power. The lower maiar, like Istari, have not a cloth, but physical bodies, which can simply die. In Tolkien's view -any kind of death is just the destruction of the physical cover, however that may in some way affect the soul. |
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01-15-2006, 06:54 AM | #11 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Olmer, I have no time for a reply now, I only want to tell you how happy I am to see you back!
The Moot has been SOOO dull without you! |
01-15-2006, 08:40 AM | #12 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Welcome back though, Olmer!
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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01-15-2006, 03:22 PM | #13 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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But there was not a single major conspiracy theory since Olmer left! Neither was there a single animated discussion in the books threads. That's why I almost stopped posting there. You know I don't like playing trivia games or discussing "who is your favourite what's not". |
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01-15-2006, 06:47 PM | #14 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I have been wondering what impact the existence of an earlier conception of the Wizard King might have on your theory. I think there might be some evidence to support it, actually. I shall have to think on it more. Quote:
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I don't think the Nazgul could be likened to the Dead of Dunharrow. I think the latter had no material bodies, they were only spirits trapped in Middle-Earth, while the nazgul still had their material (but invisible) bodies, so were able to wear clothes, wield weapons and ride horses/Fell beasts. But you may be right that a nazgul could hardly die in the same fashion of a normal Man. Perhaps they existed entirely "on the other side" but could temporarily move into the physical world for a time? A sort of temporary incarnation? The difficulty here, as I see it, is that Tolkien himself hardly had a consistent idea on the matter. Quote:
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01-15-2006, 07:51 PM | #15 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The Ainur are definitely different than the Eldar, tho - The Ainur were originally outside of Arda, then some of the Ainur entered Arda and some didn't, while the Eldar were created in Arda.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-16-2006, 10:04 AM | #16 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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A good example of one of the Ainur for this thread would be Melian. After Thingol's death, she fled her Elven form. Do you suppose she went back to Valinor? Did she take another form, or did she die?
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01-16-2006, 01:00 PM | #17 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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There is no conspiracy. Did you ever heard of spontaneous combustion? People get burnt to ashes in real life without any illegimate relations to the Dark Charmer. The Gaffer Quote:
Gordis Quote:
Only one occurence of Numenor's straight contact with Valinor has been registered in Numenor's history:in the time of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir "the messengers" from Aman had been wisiting the Isle of Elenna. But I have no idea of how to connect this fact with an establishment of the order. Gordis Quote:
RÃ*an Quote:
"I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell." ..."the stars wheeled over and each day was as long as a life-age on the earth." (TTT. "The white rider") Gordis Quote:
Thanks a bunch, guys!!! |
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01-16-2006, 06:18 PM | #18 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Tolkien's original idea was that wizards were Men: Gandalf spoke of "our noble profession". Originally there was no connection of wizards to Valinor, instead, some of them were meant to be Numenoreans, only with special knowledge and powers. And though Tolkien has corrected almost all the vertiges of this earlier conception from the text, some are still there. For example: "Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten" Now everyone thinks that it refers to Valinor. No, originally it referred to Numenor. And really, what "youth" can Gandalf the Maia speak about? The maia was young long before the stars and the Sun and the trees... It is useless to argue against the earlier drafts using the conceptions that were developed much later. Yes, sure they do not fit, but that's why they were edited! |
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01-17-2006, 08:48 AM | #19 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Well, I will leave your shoes to you, as you are back But I still prefer my "Feanor as the Dark Charmer's son" idea to your spontaneous combustion. At least my theory explains all the facts. |
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01-17-2006, 02:59 PM | #20 | |
Hobbit in the Music
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