04-25-2007, 11:02 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: St. Louis, Mo. USA
Posts: 561
|
How did Arwen give up her immortality?
Is it explained...is there a ritual performed? Does "just staying" in ME and not sailing off cause it to happen? Or is it just a choice?
__________________
Ringbearer Hide Witch, hide! The Good Folks come to burn thee! Their keen enjoyment hid behind A Gothic mask of duty! |
04-25-2007, 11:07 PM | #2 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Elrond and his brother Elros - and also the children of Elrond - were given the choice of being counted among Men or Elves because of their mixed lineage. This appears to have been a special grant to those few, not to any or all of mixed lineage.
Elrond chose to be among the Elves, Elros chose to be among Men. For Arwen, choosing to be among Men went hand-in-hand with choosing to marry a man. We are not told with certainty about the choices of Elladan and Elrohir, Arwen's brothers. Most probably think they chose to be numbered with the Elves.
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
04-26-2007, 04:55 PM | #3 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
I've always wondered if Arwen actually ever made the choice to become human or, in fact, ever did. Her story could be interpreted as her giving up he life when Aragorn passed away, as many elves did when the sadness of the world overcame them.
I've always assumed that the "choice" was an event unique to the Eärendil and Elwing situation (them and their two children). Elros' children, for example, weren't given the choice to be elves, and it doesn't seem as if Dior was ever presented with a choice either.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
04-26-2007, 05:16 PM | #4 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
*gets out "Letters of JRRT" * No, JRRT says Elrond and Arwen are parted, hence their great grief - so she definitely made the choice. (possible side-thread: is JRRT pro-choice? ) And a footnote in letter 246 has some good info, too. But an interesting question, Ringbearer - is there some sort of ritual, or just something like a prayer request?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-26-2007 at 05:18 PM. |
|
04-26-2007, 05:37 PM | #5 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Indeed - very good question!
........... She made the choice - no two ways - but i wonder if she needed to - or was it almost forced on her? is it a procreation thing do you think? (in a funny old way,if it was that, it would make sense!) |
04-26-2007, 06:04 PM | #6 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
|
Simply put, she requested, and then filled out, a 'Termination of Services' form with the EIC (Elvish Immortality Center), stopped paying her yearly fees, and dropped her subscription to the monthly newsletter.
|
04-27-2007, 12:11 AM | #7 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
I think it's pretty clear the half-elven get to choose and their choices become their reality.
|
04-27-2007, 05:57 AM | #8 | |||
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Yes - early in Appendix A (second page of it, in my paperback), see the one paragraph that starts:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 04-27-2007 at 05:59 AM. |
|||
04-27-2007, 10:52 AM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
This leads me, though, to ask another question that I've pondered: if elves and human can cross-bread, does this make them, biologically, the same species? If so, it would appear the differences between the two are merely racial which, by any objective measure, would make them minor indeed. But they're not minor!
|
04-27-2007, 11:03 AM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
Problems of species biology are but child's play for someone who makes up an entire cosmology. Humans and Elves who wanted to breed got permission from the head dragon.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
04-27-2007, 03:04 PM | #11 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Val knows his appendices!
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
04-27-2007, 08:51 PM | #12 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Quote:
|
|
04-30-2007, 05:12 AM | #13 |
Enting
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gondolin. in travian.it server5
Posts: 91
|
What about unfinished tales and the potion of immortality that Elves there drink, and offer to the human? Is it a metaphore, or JRR's early\late\side position?
__________________
The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! What does "LOL" mean? |
04-30-2007, 04:38 PM | #14 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
so- we beg the question - if he really loved his daughter, he couldn't have hung around a few mortal years, those of Aragorn's mortal life? Left the sons and heirs of the union to renew the bloodline and all sailed to the West happy? (with a few hankerchiefs for Arwen) What gives? |
|
04-30-2007, 09:41 PM | #15 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
06-02-2007, 06:58 PM | #16 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
06-03-2007, 05:58 AM | #17 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
|
|
06-03-2007, 05:18 PM | #18 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
|
|
06-04-2007, 01:57 PM | #19 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bree
Posts: 148
|
Quote:
I was under the impression is that there were some physical differences between various elves (example the elves of Gondolin tended to be smaller than their Noldorian cousins) as there were physical differences between various houses of men - however the real difference between elves and men was their spirit or fëa and the theological constraints placed on it by Eru. |
|
06-04-2007, 05:15 PM | #20 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
|
Well, Oxford dictionary does list race as a biological term:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/race_2?view=uk Quote:
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
On the death of Arwen | Earendil | Lord of the Rings Books | 52 | 02-09-2008 03:23 PM |
Give Me My Child...A Short Story related to Dracula | Gwaimir Windgem | Writer's Workshop | 3 | 10-15-2006 09:11 PM |
Boo hoo Arwen | straight_face | Lord of the Rings Movies | 4 | 01-18-2003 12:16 AM |
galladriel vs. arwen | samwiselvr2008 | Lord of the Rings Movies | 63 | 10-27-2002 06:26 PM |
The latest McKellen update - Radagast, Arwen, etc. | IronParrot | Lord of the Rings Movies | 10 | 08-01-2000 08:11 PM |